Wikidata:Property proposal/estimated value
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estimated value
[edit]Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic
| Description | the estimated value of a house, company, patent, etc |
|---|---|
| Represents | economic value (Q868257) |
| Data type | Number (not available yet) |
| Example 1 | Cargill (Q1036056) → 55 billion USD (2011) |
| Example 2 | Bill Gates's house (Q371973) → 127,484,000 USD (2017) |
| Example 3 | Mona Lisa (Q12418) → 100 million USD (1962) |
| Expected completeness | always incomplete (Q21873886) |
| See also | capital cost (P2130), price (P2284), net worth (P2218), market capitalization (P2226) |
Motivation
[edit]I'd like to propose a new property which can be used for estimating an object's value. It can be a private company, house, patent, painting, etc. A house may capital cost (P2130) 10$ to build, with a price (P2284) tag of 20$, but for now is not for sale but has an estimated value of 30$ . Mona Lisa (Q12418) hasn't been sold, so the value can only be estimated and may be different depending on estimation. The property should have a point in time (P585) constraint and also have a reference.
Germartin1 (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]
Support Dhx1 (talk) 17:48, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Comment It seems like we have a property for this already, but maybe not? Anyway, determination method or standard (P459) should probably be used as a qualifier to note that it was an estimate (or perhaps a more specific item for the type of estimate). ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:09, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Weak oppose I also agree with ArthurPSmith, I think Cargill (Q1036056)price (P2284)55 billion USDdetermination method or standard (P459)estimate (Q37113960) is preferable. Maybe price (P2284) needs to be updated to fix the description a bit though. Iwan.Aucamp (talk) 18:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC) - A price is different concept, it is not applicable for most paintings, or companies, since it suggests that it can be bought. A price is set by the selling entity, whereas the value is estimated or determined by a formula Germartin1 (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Germartin1 Iwan.Aucamp does not write to you that there is no difference in the place occupied by the estimated entity. On the contrary, with his example, he clearly expresses an estimate, no matter "where the entity is located" (seller, buyer, owner), and this can precisely accompany several properties. IMHO An Item
- A price is different concept, it is not applicable for most paintings, or companies, since it suggests that it can be bought. A price is set by the selling entity, whereas the value is estimated or determined by a formula Germartin1 (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
The appropriate propertyA sum
- Leaning support It exists for people, so why not entities. Entity: replace the enumeration of the description with this term, if there is creation of property, it is cleaner. —Eihel (talk) 22:27, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Oppose per ArthurPSmith. --Tinker Bell ★♥ 02:49, 19 May 2020 (UTC) Support --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 16:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)- I'm not sure I oppose creating this property. I thought we already had a property appropriate for value, but I can't find it. I actually do think that price and value (and also cost) are distinct enough they should have separate properties. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:52, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- All the same, ArthurPSmith. I searched for a long time with the term "value" (property), because, without ambiguity with an ownership of an entity by an entity, a property like this would allow to use P459. In the sense that Germartin1 understands (without the possession of an entity, an estimation), P459 does not allow this quantification. Hence my vote. —Eihel (talk) 19:51, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Weak support Nepalicoi (talk) 18:32, 19 May 2020 (UTC)opposenow but might support after anyone organizing more detailed discussion. For the examples given the company seems like it should have market capitalization (P2226), and I fail to recognize what the value of a company would be if not that. For the mega-home and unique artwork the money amounts named are not conventional data, because they are more like numbers someone made up for publicity. For the Love of God (Q6400207) was famously reported to have been sold for $100 million [1], the same as Bill Gates house and the Mona Lisa here, but despite the equivalent reported value I doubt the artist could have negotiated a trade of their artwork for either of those other two. Journalism values of this sort are a measurement of what large number a publication dares to print. I would like more discussion about how various related properties, cost, value, price, market cap, should interrelate. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)- market capitalization (P2226) is not suitable for a Cargill, since it's not publicly traded. This number can be estimated by newspapers (what they dare to print) but it may also be estimated by govt agencies (see Bill gate's home, estimated by the county department) or economic experts (based on a their assets, revenue). For the artwork you mentioned I think price is suitable. Well, for my proposed property multiple values should be allowed, and they may different sources. Germartin1 (talk) 14:36, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Bluerasberry: did you see this response from Germartin1? I think it addresses your concern pretty directly. Do you still oppose creating this? ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:16, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- market capitalization (P2226) is not suitable for a Cargill, since it's not publicly traded. This number can be estimated by newspapers (what they dare to print) but it may also be estimated by govt agencies (see Bill gate's home, estimated by the county department) or economic experts (based on a their assets, revenue). For the artwork you mentioned I think price is suitable. Well, for my proposed property multiple values should be allowed, and they may different sources. Germartin1 (talk) 14:36, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support @Germartin1, ArthurPSmith: I change to support. Thanks for developing the conversation. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:09, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's odd that we don't have this yet. .. --- Jura 15:26, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- exactly, hope to find more support Germartin1 (talk) 09:04, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support ErinaSen (talk) 14:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support a price is different than a value, price is a more narrow concept that assumes a transaction has taken place while a value can be estimated without any transaction. Values can be very different from price, a house can be valued by the government for tax purposes (determining tax rate) and valued by an insurance for insurance purposes (the value of rebuilding the house in case of damage) and both these values can be different from the value it would fetch on the market if sold (the market price may be much much higher due to a unique location, historic significance or lower due to government constraints on a property). In addition, an insurance can put a value on objects that cannot be sold (eg fingers of a piano player) and thus do not ever have a price. A price is a sub-concept of value, namely a realized value at a given point in time. --Hannes Röst (talk) 01:44, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support currently missing --- Jura 17:07, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support I should probably indicate that I've decided I do support creating this property, or possibly just one with the name 'value'. ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:16, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Arthur, I think we have enough support. Germartin1 (talk) 18:14, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Germartin1, Dhx1, ArthurPSmith, Iwan.Aucamp, Eihel: @Tinker Bell, Nepalicoi, Bluerasberry, Jura1, ErinaSen, Hannes Röst: estimated value (P8340) has been created. Pamputt (talk) 17:32, 16 June 2020 (UTC)