Wikidata:Property proposal/translation of

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translation of

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Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Creative work

   Done: translation of (P9745) (Talk and documentation)

Motivation

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Currently, translations are put in the has edition or translation (P747) and edition or translation of (P629) properties, which can make these statements very convoluted. It would be nice to have a dedicated property for translations specifically, as schema.org has.

This would be useful not only to books, but also songs that have translated versions.

Approving this would also change has edition or translation (P747) and edition or translation of (P629) to "has edition" and "edition of".

WikiProject Books has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead.

Lectrician1 (talk) 20:08, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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@Tinker Bell: This is a bad move as it was NEVER proposed to the Wikidata Books project and in fact the most recent discussions there were that this was not where we were progressing. The discussion that took place years ago about how to do this, and this was shot down at that time. Can I ask that you please delete the property and put a proper discussion at Wikidata talk:WikiProject Books so that the project can give you their feedback and work out how it would go back and address such a matter. Thanks

It is also a problematic implementation due to there being no reverse property which currently exists "has edition".

@Lectrician1: I find the above ping here to a group and no notification to Wikidata talk:WikiProject Books quite tawdry in execution of reasonable and polite operating process.  — billinghurst sDrewth 12:28, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

further there is has edition or translation (P747) and version, edition or translation (Q3331189) that are heavily in play here, and this new property doesn't fit well, nor is there a plan for it to fit.  — billinghurst sDrewth 12:42, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment one cannot just change the context of an existing property like was done. I have reverted. The correct process would be the creation of 2 new properties that would take the existing links and through maintenance split them. By such a reckless change, we have all these translations that were properly linked, now incorrectly linked, not notified to the Wikisources, and unable to be maintained and even known to go looking for them.  — billinghurst sDrewth 12:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@billinghurst:
"I find the above ping here to a group and no notification to Wikidata talk:WikiProject Books"
I have been proposing multiple properties over the past week that effect versions and translations and I had to ping projects multiple times, some which would not go through because I was mentioning too many people. Sorry about that.
"version, edition, or translation (Q3331189) that are heavily in play here, and this new property doesn't fit well, nor is there a plan for it to fit"
I mean, it could still fit. Making a plan and changing the data model a bit could make it fit better.
"The correct process would be the creation of 2 new properties that would take the existing links and through maintenance split them."
What do we do in the case of the proposal in which no inverse property was proposed because most people do not want inverse properties anymore? Lectrician1 (talk) 13:00, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The PLANNING on what to do for properties under the stewardship of a project is best undertaken by the project in a holistic consideration, that was the purpose of the projects. Do you know how many tens to hundred of thousands works are impacted by such a change at the Wikisources? Multiple brains need to be at work here, and the creation of an isolated property is simply problematic. It should be undo now, before it; and then go back to the drawing board. If it is that important then it can have the time taken, there is no urgent nor imperative need for this property.  — billinghurst sDrewth 13:49, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Re- WikiProject Books has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead.

What are the pros and cons of having a separate translation property?

I proposed it because:

  1. I saw how schema.org has separate properties for editions, translations, and releases (music releases, the area I actually specialize in) and I wanted to create a unifying system on Wikidata that matches it. From my experience with music and book releases, it makes sense.
  2. I've seen literary work items before that have a lot of editions and translations mixed together and I thought a property would be nice. I also thought it would work well for translated songs too.

I actually went into proposing this property without any knowledge of the prior discussions of having a separate property.

Now that I have read through them, it seems like the main argument is that libraries and in-general with books, editions and translations are treated as the same thing. Is this correct. What other reasons are there?

I also would like to know why has edition or translation (P747) and edition or translation of (P629) have constraints that make them not able to be placed with one another. It seems like this conflict is part of the reason why people are supporting this property.

I'm currently pretty neutral at the moment about whether this property should exist or as I understand and support both sides of the argument. I would like for the community to work together and come up with a solution, without leaving User:Jura1 hanging like last time.

Thoughts Wikiproject Books?

--Lectrician1 (talk) 00:16, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Annnnnddd the ping didn't go through. Lectrician1 (talk) 01:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Come on now. Relying on a ping is the most facile argument. Go to the talk page and make your argument. Put it on the record in a clear space that people are watching. Watchlists are regularly more live than a ping.  — billinghurst sDrewth 11:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment The nutshell of the argument that was put forward was that there is one concept for a literary work and everything hangs of it, be it an edition or a translation. I know that I proposed that a translation became a new work level item and in itself had editions was not accepted as a reasonable approach to undertake, and seen as too difficult within WD. The consensus position was what we have. I am not an expert in this whole space but it seems to be working, and until there is a complete plan for how translations work I believe that the status quo should be maintained.

Jura was not left hanging. I saw it that Jura did not put forward a compelling argument and schema for change. There is a difference.  — billinghurst sDrewth 11:50, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@billinghurst: My question about why has edition or translation (P747) and edition or translation of (P629) can't be placed together without conflict wasn't answered. Do you know why? Lectrician1 (talk) 16:42, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Lectrician1: If a translation is based on a work, not an edition, then the constraints are in place to flag that. Otherwise, look in the archives of the talk page of the project for the detailed conversations.  — billinghurst sDrewth 02:22, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have requested the deletion of this property as I believe its creation is premature and the plan for use is undeveloped and will cause splintering of data without clear plans for implementation and use. I presume that it can be undeleted if there is a later decision to use it and the plan exists for its use.  — billinghurst sDrewth 11:55, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]