Talk:Q124821073

Naming

Hospital de Santo António (Q1630437) is a large, interconnected complex of several buildings:

• The Neoclassical Building: the oldest one, built in the 17th century, architect John Carr, National Monument and still in use for some services, administration and museum;
• The Luis Carvalho Building: built in 1998, by architect José Carlos Loureiro; is the de facto main medical building today, with most of the medical facilities;
• A number of smaller buildings in D. Manuel II street.

I felt the need to create different Wikidata items for each building since their heritage status, authorship, construction dates, etc, were radically different from each other. This page is about the Neoclassical Building. I named it "Neoclassical building" or "Edifício Neoclássico" because that is the name given to the building by the hospital itself, as it can be seen in its website, documents and printed media (examples here, here, here, here, etc. I added the prefix "Hospital de Santo António -", because 1) it's on the hospital's website (source #2) and 2) would provide better context than simply "Edifício Neoclássico" ("Neoclassical Building"), which could be a million things.

Since then, user Tm has embarked in a massive edit war to change the title to "Hospital de Santo António". Such title is unacceptable because such name is given to the whole complex described in Hospital de Santo António (Q1630437). Or, depending on the context, it can be used in reference to any building inside the complex. For example, in the context of art studies or tourism, the use of "Hospital de Santo António" will probably be in reference to the Neoclassical Building. But in the context of administrative purposes or if one has a medical emergency, then it will probably be used in reference to the Luis Carvalho Building. Same names would also create a lot of confusion on Wikidata.

User Tm has been claiming that many sources use the term "Hospital de Santo António" and he has been stuffing the "official name" with them. Well, ofc they do. It's the hospital's name. But they are either 1) referring to Hospital de Santo António (Q1630437) or 2) are written from a specific point of view for which only the Neoclassical Building matters. For example, for an architecture publication where heritage is being discussed, they may simply use "Hospital de Santo António" and everyone will understand they are talking about the Neoclassical Building specifically. But in Wikidata there isn't such context. All contexts and scenarios must be considered. It's utterly bizarre and absurd having an item called "Hospital de Santo António" inside another item called "Hospital de Santo António". And why not call all the other buildings "Hospital de Santo António" then?

I fully disagree with the name change aggressively pursued by user Tm through edit warring. Within the context of multiple buildings, each building must be unique. And no one better than the hospital itself knows that. That's why they call this building the "Neoclassical Building" so it can be unambiguously distinguished from the others. If "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico" is too weird, I might agree with "Edifício Neoclássico do Hospital de Santo António". But changing it to "Hospital de Santo António" is utterly nonsense. JMagalhães (talk) 04:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Just less then 3 hours ago that "The page already has the official name given to the building by the hospital itself.". And that name was "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico", name that you added without a single proper source. Now you are claiming something completely different that the one you added the "prefix "Hospital de Santo António"" to the name "Edifício Neoclássico". Curious, as it was me that added all the sources to the name "Edifício Neoclássico" and you were constantly removing them not once, [not two times, [not even three times or four times, but dozens of times.

Not a single time you were capable of prove what you said about the name, but i was more then capable of proving what i said with quoted sources, sources that you tried dozens of times to remove, making accusations of "POV-pushing with random links" or that "your "hospital source" is the history whole complex, including the 1998 building, not just this building" when clearly was about the 1770-1824 building.

You made the constant rolling of my addiction of sources, materials used in this building, different names, addiction of sources or quotes, dates related to this building, yet, appart of the main name, i let all your edits in this page. I think, just this, shows who is doing what.

I supplied the proper sources to the proper names, so it is your time to show what sources support what you claim to be the official name. And, for last word for now, thanks alot for wasting my time with this, when we both could be making other things, like me adding more items of portuguese heritage and you adding info about the health organizations of the portuguese SNS. Tm (talk) 04:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

And, for a fact as seen by the sources on this page, the Santa Casa da Misericórdia do Porto, call this buildings Hospital de Santo António or Hospital Santo António. And they should know better as they are the owners of the building, not the portuguese state. Tm (talk) 04:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Your statement is confusing, to say the least. You do recognize that the hospital and the sources state "Edifício Neoclássico", including the ones on this page. In fact, you even added some to the official name. Yet, you keep accusing me of not providing sources or evidence? I'm sorry... what? JMagalhães (talk) 04:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Dont pedal back. You created this item and named it, at 14h20min of yesterday, "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico" not me and then you said, a little more of three hours ago, that "The page already has the official name given to the building by the hospital itself.". It was you not me.

I added what in fact were the two official names, addiction that you kept constantly reverting, dozens of times. You, on the other hand, tried to pass the name, "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico", asthe official one, not providing sources or evidence and when caught in the act are now backpeddling, now claiming that you merely added a prefix. Tm (talk) 04:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh wait. Do you think I make some sort of point with the prefix "Hospital de Santo António -"? No, I don't. The relevant part is the "Edifício Necolássico", which is on most of the sources. The prefix can help to distinguish, but that's not the relevant part. JMagalhães (talk) 04:43, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

So, you have academic sources, the law that made this building an cultural heritage monument, the owner Misericórdia do Porto, the municipality, the organization Hospital de Santo António, the former DGPC, all using a name, that also is by far the most used by the media and anonymous people of Porto (as a quick search on a search engine shows), yet you insist on your own, mashup of names? Tm (talk) 04:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Already addressed. Read what I wrote. JMagalhães (talk) 04:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

And again, you claim to want to discuss, yet you have make up another name again Tm (talk) 04:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You resarted edit warring but you have the balls to demand that i "reach a consensus on the discussion page" when you go by behind and change to a name you made up? Tm (talk) 04:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The article was created with that name until you started to aggressively change it. Want a different one? Reach a consensus here. JMagalhães (talk) 05:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

If you just want to edit war on the name, why then you opened this page? And then restart your edit war? And making up names as you go along? Tm (talk) 05:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The article was created with a made up name, so it was bound to happen sooner or latter to be changed, as you have provided zero sources to your name. Again, what are your sources to the made-up mashup of "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Necolássico"? Tm (talk) 05:02, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

That is precious, claiming you have supremacy of the name even when it is made-up, coming from someone like you that changed the names of items i created about hospital buildings, to the names of hospital organizations. Tm (talk) 05:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The article was created under "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico", until you started an edit war a few hours ago to aggressively change it. That is the name that will stay until a consensus is reached. "Edifício Neoclássico" is the official name given by the hospital. JMagalhães (talk) 05:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Please provide sources that prove that the official name of this building is also either "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico" or ""Edifício Neoclássico do Hospital de Santo António". Otherwise you are just making things up. Tm (talk) 05:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Who aggressively changed the names of the items of several hospital buildings to the names of the organizations that use them? Who hijacked several items created by me for those hospital buildings and forced me to create new ones to end the confusion? Tm (talk) 05:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Stop edit warring. JMagalhães (talk) 05:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Why are you bow even reverting even the addiction of suffix of "Monumento Nacional" to this item? Or dont you want to clarify, better then already is and just want to continue edit warring for no reason at all? Tm (talk) 05:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Read what I wrote above. JMagalhães (talk) 05:15, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

That is my proposal, if you have doubt that people are so stupid that cannot see what is already stated in several places. Tm (talk) 05:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Stop it. You're completely out of control, edit warring everywhere, deliberately ignoring comments and making personal attacks. JMagalhães (talk) 05:17, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Then, if you claim that this is the original name (name that you made-up) and so it should be kept, what right have you to have changed the names of items that i created to hospital buildings, when you could have created items to the organizations? Tm (talk) 05:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I am open to change it by a civilized discussion, not through personal attacks and edit warring. JMagalhães (talk) 05:19, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

when you claim to have opened a "civilized discussion", it is you that is out of control, or who was the one that started, again, the edit war, but you?

Again, for the fifth time, sources that support your name? Tm (talk) 05:20, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Stop edit warring. I am open to discuss it by a civilized discussion, not through personal attacks and edit warring. JMagalhães (talk) 05:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

If you want to "unambiguously distinguished from the others", as you claimed above, why you refuse my proposal of compromise in "Hospital de Santo António (Monumento Nacional)"? Your actions are not a civilized discussion, you merely open a discussion and then, by stealth, revert to the name you made up. Tm (talk) 05:25, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

It is a Monumento Nacional and it is clearly already distuinguished in the description, in the properties several times, etc. Tm (talk) 05:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You didn't make any proposal. You're trying to impose it aggressively with an edit war. JMagalhães (talk) 05:27, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Speak for yourself. You are trying to impose a made-up name, made of the mashup of two official names and trying to impose it aggressively with an edit war. The solution that i propose resolves your concerns of wanting to "unambiguously distinguished from the others". Tm (talk) 05:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

So, do we have an possible agreement or will you continue to pretend that you want to discuss, while you start again the edit war while claiming to want a civilized discussion? Tm (talk) 05:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't. I said I am willing to discuss it, as long as the official name "Edifício Neoclássico" stays in the name. It's who keep edit warring to aggressively change it for something I already explained its inappropriate. Stop edit warring and the personal attacks and we can discuss again. JMagalhães (talk) 05:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Again: stop edit warring. The article will stay under the title it was created until a consensus emerges. JMagalhães (talk) 05:35, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Edifício Neoclássico is one of two official names. You have only one organization using it. You have the same organization using the other Hospital de Santo António, as is also used by the municipality, the owner Misericórdia do Porto, the law, the portuguese state, the oporto media and people use for this building. Tm (talk) 05:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

And Edifício Neoclássico is already in the name, as are several others, including your made up name. Tm (talk) 05:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The title under what this item was created still has zero sources to back it up. Tm (talk) 05:40, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

If you accept my last edit, we have a consensus. JMagalhães (talk) 05:43, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

My final proposal "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)", given that the first name is by far the much more common use, per sources. Tm (talk) 05:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You yourself said " I said I am willing to discuss it, as long as the official name "Edifício Neoclássico" stays in the name.", and so. the ball is in your court. Tm (talk) 05:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

So, the possible agreement or are you gonna start again the edit warring? And this time, this is my final proposal. Tm (talk) 05:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

It is you who is aggressively trying to change the name. Not me. I had already noticed and made an edit. It has nothing to do with "common": this item is named in relation to a broader context of buildings within Hospital de Santo António. If you accept that edit, we'll have a consensus. If not, back to the original title until we reach an agreement. JMagalhães (talk) 05:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You really want to edit war continuosly and not reach an agreement, dont you?

You yourself said " I said I am willing to discuss it, as long as the official name "Edifício Neoclássico" stays in the name", withput any mention of place of it. You yourself made up the name of this item as "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico", not "Edifício Neoclássico - Hospital de Santo António".

I have make the concessions of keeping the name of Edifício Neoclássico, even keeping the sequence of "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico" as i edit the name to Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico) but now you wanna change the sequence of the names, claiming that "this item is named in relation to a broader context of buildings within Hospital de Santo António" when my proposal also preserves the original sequence of the name you made up, just to keep edit warring????????

You really are out of control. Tm (talk) 05:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

 Comment I am not from Portugal, hence I am not familiar with Portuguese regulations. But from what I see, the dispute is about the naming of the item, and whether it should be named "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" (JMagalhães's viewpoint) or "Hospital de Santo António (Monumento Nacional)" (Tm's viewpoint). The item (Hospital de Santo António) is a national monument, and it differs from but is still part of Hospital de Santo António. I'm also trying to summarise the dispute for other admins who want to deal with this case, hence please correct me if I had said something wrong. Thanks. Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 08:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67: This is a specific building within Hospital de Santo António (Q1630437), a complex with several buildings from different eras. The page was created by me under the label "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico" (Santo António Hospital- Neoclassical Building) according to the hospital's own naming or its different buildings. For hours, Tm aggressively insisted on labeling it "Hospital Santo António", which is not accurate, its ambiguous, and surely doesn't fit the purpose of creating this page. I'm always open for discussion, as long as the unique identifier "Neoclassical Building" is on the label. But Tm is not here to discuss, just to harass me in every way possible. Since I blocked him for copyvio in his home wiki, he has been watching all my contributions here and in Commons, and in a matter of minutes or a few hours he reverts or modifies nearly all my edits, forcing his POV and changes through massive edit wars. He never really engages in any discussion to reach a consensus (it was I who opened the discussion). He keeps diverting the subject, filibustering and flooding the page with the same comments deliberately missing the point and twisting everything the other party says, just as he did in AN, and mixing his edit wars with legitimate edits, to avoid scrutiny and making administrator's intervention impossible. I've been handling LTAs for more than ten years, I'm perfectly aware of the modus operandi of such accounts. JMagalhães (talk) 09:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC) Edit: one major example of such filibusterng and diversion tactics is the fact that he reads the sources and the hospital's website that state the name is "Neoclassical Building", he even adds sources that state its name is "Neoclassical Building", but then he keeps accusing me of making up names or not presenting evidence of "my" label. This is dishonesty beyond bizarre and reveal a lot of bad faith editing. JMagalhães (talk) 09:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I have zero knowledge of Portuguese, but since it is a bit similar to English, I can roughly guess the meaning for some of the words. Based on the external link which you provided, it seems that the monument is named "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico" and "Rua Prof Vicente José de Carvalho 37, 4050-366 Porto" is the address of the monument. Is this the official website of the hospital monument?

@Tm: could you provide valid and reliable sources that indicate the monument is named "Hospital de Santo António (Monumento Nacional)"?

I could use a second pair of eyes for this because I do not speak Portuguese and may make errors. I realised that we do not have admins who are native speakers of Portuguese. But we have admins who can speak a bit of Portuguese. @Andreasmperu, Hasley, Fralambert, Madamebiblio, Esteban16, Koavf: Could one of you weigh in on this issue with your basic/intermediate knowledge of Portuguese? Thanks! Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 10:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67: Yes, that is the Santo Antonio Hospital website. Speaking of it as a "monument" gives the impression we're talking about a building that lost his original purpose and its there for decorative purposes. The Neoclassical Building still functions as an hospital and it is physically connected to the newer block (Q124821262. Note that there will be sources that, despite referring specifically to the Neoclassical Building, they simply call it "Santo Antonio Hospital". Same way as other sources use "Santo António Hospital" to refer to the new wing. The point is exactly that: context matters. If you look for "Santo Antonio Hospital" in tourist guides they will point you to the Neoclassical Building. But if you look for "Santo Antonio Hospital" in an health publication it will point to the new wing. So, "Santo Antonio Hospital" is a completely ambiguous label that can be applied to any building of the hospital, depending on the context. That goes against the purpose of this page, which is to avoid confusion and name each of the hospital's individual buildings. So, this is a matter of common sense, not of lacking sources. The hospital knows how ridiculous and confusing it would be if it called all their buildings "Santo Antonio Hospital". That's why each one has an individual name. JMagalhães (talk) 11:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

"Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico" was a name added by Jmagalhães, with a single weak source (from the hospital organization), given that i added 9 sources from the same the same hospital organization that use the name "Edifício Neoclássico" and 2 of the same hospital organization that use "Hospital de Santo António", besides the other 8 sources that named this building as "Hospital de Santo António", be it either academic, the law that gave this building an cultural heritage status or the former DGPC (the general directorate of the Government of Portugal tasked with the conservation, preservation, and inventory of Portuguese architectural heritage).

All this sources i used are listed, with quotes, on the page, after Jmagalhães tried not once time, [not two times, [not even three times or four times, but several times to remove them, that either supported the name as being either "Hospital de Santo António" OR "Edifício Neoclássico" and not the name he tried so hard to push.

"Hospital de Santo António (Monumento Nacional)" was an attempt to make a compromisse with the concerns, yet this same user refused to budge and kept saying that the name should be in the main title as he said that "I said I am willing to discuss it, as long as the official name "Edifício Neoclássico" stays in the name."

Even after i tried to make another compromisse with "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" (the name that it is now) and so preserved the "Hospital de Santo António Edifício Neoclássico" sequence that he so much wanted to keep, he kept making another name up "Edifício Neoclássico (Hospital de Santo António)", trying to still edit warring, even after my last attempt at a compromisse, Jmagalhães was ready to reject again, as seen above, now with the made up excuse that " I had already noticed and made an edit. It has nothing to do with "common": this item is named in relation to a broader context of buildings within Hospital de Santo António. If you accept that edit, we'll have a consensus. If not, back to the original title until we reach an agreement.". So, he was now trying to edit warring the use of "-" or "()".

After all the attempts at compromisse i had made, he was ready to resart all over again, but, for now at least, the name seems to have been stabilized in "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)", a compound of its two official names. Tm (talk) 11:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Yep, you will find a lot of sources for "Hospital de Santo Antonio" because, flash news, that is the name of the hospital: Hospital de Santo António (Q1630437). Yet, this item is about a specific building within that hospital. Funny how you call the hospital itself a "weak source". JMagalhães (talk) 11:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You claim that "The hospital knows how ridiculous and confusing it would be if it called all their buildings "Santo Antonio Hospital"", yet the same hospital organization uses this name in portuguese in a page titled as "Hospital de Santo António", as it says and i quote translated to english "Designed by the English architect John Carr, and with the first stone laid on July 15, 1770, the Hospital de Santo António was designed to replace the old Hospital D. Lopo de Almeida, which was located on Rua das Flores. It is one of the most extraordinary examples of neo-Palladian architecture made outside of England and the first neoclassical building in the city, which greatly influenced Porto's architecture. It was classified as a Monumento Nacional in 1910.".

Yet again the same hospital organization uses this name in portuguese in yet another page titled as "Memória e Património Cultural, as it says and i quote translated to english "The initial Unit, the Hospital de Santo António (HSA) is a national monument located in the center of Porto. Adjustments were made to its original project, by the English architect John Carr, which resulted in the current design of the Edifício Neoclássico.".

This two sources can be seen in the page, sources that you tried many times to delete. And yes, one contacts page used as source to the name of this building is weak, when i have 11 sources of the same organization saying that the buildng is named otherwise by two different official names. Tm (talk) 11:20, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67, about what you asked if i "could you provide valid and reliable sources that indicate the monument is named "Hospital de Santo António (Monumento Nacional)"", there is a source about the history of this building from University of Porto that gives, in the title, this same name "Hospital de Santo António (Monumento Nacional".

As i said above, i tried to use this name as a solution that i proposed to resolve Jmagalhães concerns of wanting to "unambiguously distinguished from the others", yet Jmagalha~es behaviour above was one of moving the goalposts just to keep edit warring and impose all of your will against others, as he was ready to edit warring about the present main name of Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" to another made up coumpund name of Edifício Neoclássico (Hospital de Santo António), after moving yet again the goalpost, as i said and linked above. Tm (talk) 11:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

And once again, admins can see the dishonest filibustering tactics employed by LTAs such as Tm to saw confusion and sabotage the admin work, mediation and reach of any consensus: 1) he calls the hospital's own website a "weak source" and describes my exact copy of the term on the website something I "made up"; 2) he is blatantly lying when says my point was related to the prefix, and has spin doctored his own mistake by claiming i have "moved the goalposts"; 3) he is blatantly lying when he says he tried to compromise, because the only thing he did was an endless edit war trying to push his desired changes; 4) he blatantly ignores the points about ambiguity and the need for sources that name each building individually, which is the main point of the discussion; 5) in a massive spin doctoring, he tries to push changes through massive edit warring, then blames it on others for "not accepting his changes" and poses as the victim. JMagalhães (talk) 11:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

A contact page of an hospital organization is a weak source when, besides the other two i quoted above to the other name you so much tried to delete, you have 9 official annual documents and reports that are used as source, since 2008, to show that your made up name is not one of two used as official name to this hospital.

Will i need to, besides already being used as quoted source in the page, listing all the nine of them and quote them in english also in here? And about you moving the goalposts, you have the timestamps to prove that you were doing it, even trying to change the last name that is still on the page, even when it ticked all your previous demands as it preserved the original sequence of the name you added and also preserved the mention of "Edifício Clássico" and has enought unambigous as you asked, yet you were ready to continue your edit was to impose yet again another demand of swapping the sequence of names with another made up excuse (i.e. move again the goalpost) Tm (talk) 11:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Again: "1) he calls the hospital's own website a "weak source" and describes my exact copy of the term on the website something I "made up"; 2) he is blatantly lying when says my point was related to the prefix, and has spin doctored his own mistake by claiming i have "moved the goalposts"

I've said many, many times, that my point is simply to keep the label "Edifício Neoclássico" (Neoclassical Building), which is used by the hospital, is properly sourced and is specific to the building. All those 9 official reports and sources use "Edifício Neoclássico". The prefix is irrelevant. What matters is to use an unambiguous term instead of the ambiguous and incorrect "Hospital de Santo Antonio" that Tm has insistingly trying to push. Yet, somehow he got into his head that I was making a point about keeping the prefix. And instead of admitting his own mistake, he keeps spin doctoring the situation, not only to make it look I somehow "moved the goalposts" but also as if I was "making up" names. He is not and never has been interested in any dialogue or constructive approach. His sole purpose of engaging in every page I edit is harassment and tiredness through repetition, flooding and blatant lies. JMagalhães (talk) 11:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

All 9 official reports and sources use, by your own words "Edifício Neoclássico" and two other sources of the same organization use "Hospital de Santo António" as the name of this building, as i linked above, not "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Neoclássico", only used in their contact pages. And the same could be said about the more moden building, where this organization calls it "Edifício Luís de Carvalho" in the same 9 official documents, not "Hospital de Santo António - Edifício Luís de Carvalho" as you try to pass.

And, no i did not made up, that you claim to "that my point is simply to keep the label "Edifício Neoclássico"", yet your actions say otherwise. Or is it a lie that you did really tried to move yet again the goalposts, by changing the name from "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" (that answered all of your demands) to yet another name to

"Edifício Neoclássico (Hospital de Santo António)" at 05:42?

Or are logs liying that you said yourself above that "If you accept my last edit, we have a consensus." at 05:43 and "If you accept that edit, we'll have a consensus. If not, back to the original title until we reach an agreement" at 05:50, this two statements of your being about your move to after i moved the name to "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" at 05:41, and by that kept the name and the sequene that you demanded previously? Tm (talk) 12:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I hope that is being clear the amount of filibustering and flooding that emerges from this account, endlessly repeating the same text over and over again, despite of every issue having been previously addressed. He simply pretends that other users didn't write anything at all and expects to win them over by tiredness. His point is not, and has never been, to engage in positive discussion and engagement.JMagalhães (talk) 12:40, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@JMagalhães, Tm: Alright, I hope I am not getting this wrong. Both of you agree that the building is named "Hospital de Santo António" and that it is a neoclassical building, and this is a fact that cannot be denied. But both of you differ on the point of whether it should be labeled as a national monument. JMagalhães believes that the building should not be called a national monument, as a monument does not serve its purpose as a hospital, while Tm points out using this source, that the building was labeled as a national monument in 1910. I am a bit confused, as both of you are using the same hospital website (JMagalhães's source / Tm's source) to claim different things. Let's get something clear. Is the building both a hospital and a national monument? Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 14:17, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67: That is... not exactly the dispute here, sorry. The current hospital is a complex of several buildings, built in different ages. The oldest of them, the one on this page, was built in the 18th century in neoclassical style and was the sole building of the hospital until the 1970s. It was classified as a National Monument in 1910. In the 70s the hospital started to build new buildings on the campus and, finally, in 1998, the largest building that has become the main hospital building since then. The old, Neoclassical building is obsolete for most medical standarts but its still in use for offices, outpatient appointments and other support services. When you have different buildings in the same campus, you can't call all of them "Hospital de Santo António". Therefore, there's a need to name them individually. So, the oldest building has become known as the "Neoclassical Building", while the other buildings received other names. Inside the hospital campus, this building has become known as the "Neoclassical Building". It is as simple as that. That's what's on the sources you pointed. You're assuming this dispute is more complicated than what it is. That is because you're assuming it is motivated by a genuine concern. It is not. No one else would have made a dispute over this. Tm's sole motive is Tm's pattern of behaviour of harassing me on every corner and picking up a fight everywhere for frivoulous reasons. He is angry about my block on his home wiki and is just seeking revenge and ways to annoy me. JMagalhães (talk) 15:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I roughly understood what you meant. You are saying that this building, which is the oldest building within the hospital premises and also classified as a national monument, is named "Neoclassical Building". This building design was proposed by the English architect John Carr (I'm reading this article with Google Translate). I agree that it is necessary to name the buildings differently. But since this building is within Hospital de Santo António's premises, I suggest maintaining the status quo - "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)". Just to clarify, there is no other building named "Edifício Neoclássico" right? Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 16:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67: I had already answered earlier, but, yes, I won't dispute that label. That is the only "Neoclassical Building" within Santo António Hospital campus. The label I had proposed in my first comment as a compromise was very similar. All of this nonsense could have been avoided if both parties were engaged in a good faith discussion. It's sad that Tm only agreed after a massive edit war, a AN report, a threat of block and incessant filibustering that lasted for hours. JMagalhães (talk) 16:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

If this is the case, we shall maintain the status quo - "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" - also considering that the neoclassical building is within the hospital premises and part of the hospital. @Tm: do you agree on this? Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 17:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tm: I have a question for you. Is museu.chporto.pt a governmental official website? Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 14:17, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

By the way, @JMagalhães: No matter if you are right or wrong, please be mindful of your language. Labeling an editor as an LTA is not assuming good faith. We are here to create a cordial environment for everyone. Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 14:17, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67: You are right. I am not assuming good faith. We're way behind the point of assuming good faith. You are focused on this article's discussion and treating this as a simple dispute over the content of a single item that just happened by chance. But it is way more than that. User Tm closely watches all my contributions and there isn't a single day where he doesn't alter or revert my edits to pick up a fight. This happens within just a few minutes or hours after I edit. I know this is hard to spot on an user's contribution but, for example, nearly all Tm's contributions on march 12th and 13th were exclusively to modify or revert my edits made those days. That is clearly wikihounding and harassment, with the sole purpose of grinding my patience and creating an hostile environment to make me leave Wikidata. So, yeah, I'm sorry about the language, but you have to understand how annoying it is to have a stalker watching your every single contribution, that randomly starts edit wars every chance he has, with absolutely no intention of engaging in constructive discussion. That is the big picture here. And I'm tired. JMagalhães (talk) 15:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@JMagalhães: Sorry if I sounded harsh earlier, but I am not siding with anyone here. As I am not familiar with either of you, I am just trying my best to resolve this content dispute amicably. Since you brought up on AN that he is edit-warring with you, we have to step in to mediate this as this is within the content scope of Wikidata. I do not know what personal dispute you have against Tm, hence I do not want to comment on that and make haphazard remarks. Personal grievances with another editor should be resolved privately or at your homewiki. We do not have any obligation or right to intervene on that. I understand that you are fed up, but I hope you understand our position too. Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 16:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67: No, no. The harassment I described takes place on Wikidata. He wouldn't risk doing it on his home wiki, as harassment on this scale would have certainly resulted in a very long block. I didn't have any personal grievances with such user. I blocked him for a pure technical reason. Couldn't even remember who he was at first. He is just taking advantage of a generally more permissive environment to harass me. JMagalhães (talk) 16:17, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67: Regarding this specific mediation... the main issue is sort of solved. The title has, at least, the term "Neoclassical Building". Note that Tm only agreed after I reported the situation, otherwise he would continue with the edit warring. I had already show openness to a similar title in my very first message on this page. It's not perfect and the "official names" field is completely wrong, but quite frankly, I am tired of all this wikihouding, harassment and filibustering absolutely pointless. Problematic users like Tm bet on making others quit by tiredness and they're quite good at succeeding. What I would like is the systematic wikihounding and harassment to stop. JMagalhães (talk) 16:27, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@JMagalhães: I do not know what exactly happened on the Portuguese Wikipedia except for the fact that you blocked him for copyright violations there. But whatever it is, please resolve your disputes amicably if there is any. Even if he tries to find fault with you on Wikidata, please remain calm and do not engage in edit wars. As administrators, we are here to maintain order and remain neutral/impartial in disputes. You are an administrator on the Portuguese Wikipedia, and I am sure you will do the same on your project too. If you have a dispute with someone and action needs to be taken, it is best to let other admins take action as you are involved and may not make the correct judgment. Blocks are preventive, and not punitive, hence they should not be made on a grudge. Nevertheless, we do not tolerate harassment or personal attacks. We have no choice but to block editors who engage in such behaviour despite being warned. Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 17:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67 you asked that "If this is the case, we shall maintain the status quo - "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" - also considering that the neoclassical building is within the hospital premises and part of the hospital. @Tm: do you agree on this?". Well, it was me this name in the first place at 05:41 as an attempt at compromisse with what Jmagalhães was saying, as i stated in this discussion at 05:44, but even after this last attempt to reach an agreement taking into account what Jmagalhães was saying, the same Jmagalhães also tried to revert it and changing it to "Edifício Neoclássico (Hospital de Santo António)". So, it is not to me that you should ask if i agree, but to Jmagalhães as he never answered my question of 05:44 (and answered to my first proposal to compromisse by reverting it), given that he reverted even the name "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" added by me in an attempt to reach an agreement.

As i stated we have, on this page, 10 quoted sources that support the name "Hospital de Santo António", as being one of the official names of this building. Two of this sources are fromthe organization(s) that use this building, another is an academic article from teh University of Lsbon about this buildings, another article on this same building on the website of the University of Porto, as well as a source from the Misericórdia do Porto (the owner of this building), to the two sources from former DGPC that regulates the portuguese cultural heritage monuments, to the law that classified this building as a Monumento Nacional (National Monument). I also added 11 sources from the official reports and documents of the organizations that use this building that support the name "Edifício Neoclássico" as being another official name of this buiding.

Yet, even after i asked more then one time to show his sources for his name he added, Jmagalhães only could provide a contact page to the health organization that uses the building.

@JMagalhães You claim that "Tm's sole motive is Tm's pattern of behaviour of harassing me on every corner and picking up a fight everywhere for frivoulous reasons. He is angry about my block on his home wiki and is just seeking revenge and ways to annoy me.", yet first, my home wiki is not the portuguese language wikipedia and second i have better things to do then to "harassing me on every corner and picking up a fight everywhere for frivoulous reasons". You blocked me on the pt wikipedia just because you claimed that the quotes i used in one article were copyight violations do to you thinking they were to extensive and yet that was almost 6 months ago, so that is a very long time, so what other instances, besides this dispute about items related to hospital buildings and health organizations, have i have "harassing you on every corner and picking up a fight everywhere for frivoulous reasons" as so you claim? Show proofs of what you say. Tm (talk) 18:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jianhui67: Can you see his modus operandi? I had already consented on the current label. Twice. Yet, he keeps claiming you should ask me. Either he doesn't read anything other people write, or deliberately pretends not to read in order to frame opponents as being at fault. He has no actual interest in the item. He is only interested in flooding the pages with the same thing over and over again, no matter how debunked they were. JMagalhães (talk) 19:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Only at at 16:27 you said "the main issue is sort of solved. The title has, at least, the term "Neoclassical Building"." and at 17:04 you said that "I had already answered earlier, but, yes, I won't dispute that label.". Yet your previous actions, 12 hours before, give the contrary answer per below, even if, at 05:33 , you "said I am willing to discuss it, as long as the official name "Edifício Neoclássico" stays in the name." and so i readded the "Edifício Neoclássico" part at 05:41.

If you were in agreement with this label, as you seem to imply by your last answer, as it is, then why is that:

1 - Iinstead of aswering positevely to i question made at 05:44, if you were in agreement with it, your only answers to it was at 05:44 to say that"If you accept my last edit, we have a consensus.". And in that edit you changed the Label from "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" to "Edifício Neoclássico (Hospital de Santo António)" at 05:42, so why this action of yours if you agreed with the label "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)"?

2 - Repeat the same asnwer at 05:50, to comment on this reversion with the link above and saying that "It is you who is aggressively trying to change the name. Not me. I had already noticed and made an edit". Tm (talk) 19:40, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tm, JMagalhães: Alright, the both of you, please calm down and let's not bring personal disputes into this, okay? Since Tm proposed the name "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)" and JMagalhães has agreed to this label here and here, we shall maintain the name "Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico)". Do not change the name anymore and if there is still any dispute about the naming of the item, please voice it out here. Thanks. Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 01:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

@JMagalhães: Please do not change the item name since you have consented to the current label verbally on this talk page. If you still have disputes about the name and want to make suggestions, please voice it out here, and not change the name unilaterally. As for the onwiki harassment accusations, if you claim that he is seeking revenge and wikihounding you, it is best to settle this personal dispute at your homewiki and let another ptwiki admin be the mediator. Both of you are native speakers of Portuguese and I think settling the dispute at ptwiki might be more appropriate. We do not speak Portuguese, hence we might not be the most suitable party to intervene in your personal disputes, lest we make erroneous judgments. Harassment is a very strong word and I realised that you have been accusing him of harassment many times in this discussion. I hope that your dispute with him will be resolved amicably. Regards, Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 01:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tm: As far as I can see, your block log on ptwiki has not been good and you have engaged in edit wars in the past. No matter if you are right or wrong, please be mindful of your behaviour. If you still have disputes about the naming of the item and you want to make suggestions, please voice it out here. Regards, Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 01:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Since both of them have stopped replying to this thread, I shall conclude that the name of the item - Hospital de Santo António (Edifício Neoclássico) - will remain as it is. This discussion is thereby closed. Jianhui67 ^{talk★contribs} 16:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)