Talk:Q1841

Definition of catholicism

@AdamBMorgan:Following the etymology of catholicism in Greek this means universal doctrine. So the first definition of catholicism is a religious doctrine. So catholicism can't be a church which is an organization. Snipre (talk) 20:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

@Snipre: I don't understand your comment. Is this about the has part(s) (P527) entries or the label? - AdamBMorgan (talk) 10:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry if my comment was not clear. Yes, your edits say that some organizations (the churches) are part of a religious doctrine. This is not coherent. To be coherent, you have to :

1. modify the definition of catholicism using instance of or subclass of to set that Catholicism is an organization
2. create new items to define the corresponding religious doctrines for the churches you want to link to Catholicism. Snipre (talk) 11:12, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

By definition, catholicism is broad term related to the Catholic Church. It's why the term is a redirection on the cathopedia Encyclopedia, see http://it.cathopedia.org/wiki/Cattolicesimo On Wikidata, the current Italian description is accurate (indica la Chiesa fondata da Gesù Cristo). genium ⟨✉⟩ 14:37, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@Genium: Please use your knowledge about Greek and don't say that "catholicism is broad term related to the Catholic Church". Saying that means you don't know about what you speak if you take the etymology of the word. You want another source better than a wiki web site ? Have a look at this (a reference in French language): catholicisme = Ensemble des dogmes, institutions et préceptes de l'Église catholique romaine. This is not a broad term related to catholic church. Snipre (talk) 15:05, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Should Catholicism include orthodoxy ?

@Andreasmperu, Genium, AdamBMorgan: Orthodox church is catholic in the sense of universal like it is apostolic. But Catholicism term is commonly used to describe the doctrine of the catholic church at least in Europe. If someone want to enlarge the concept please bring references about this.
We could create an item roman Catholicism but we should bring enough proof that Catholicism is not equal to roman Catholicism. Roman Catholicism is not accurate because even if the Vatican is responsible of the doctrine of the catholic church, this doctrine applies outside of the only roman catholic church and is used in the 22 eastern catholic churches (these eastern catholic churches are not the ones of the orthodox churches).
The best is to avoid the mention of roman in this item to avoid to define this item to the only roman catholic church of latin rite. Comment ? Snipre (talk) 07:31, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Unity between the Catholic and Orthodox churches is not released at the time of this writing. The correct wording for this debate is Ecumenism. I found this explanation for French readers. Hope this helps. genium ⟨✉⟩ 10:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Definition

There is a problem of definitions between languages. In English, it says that it is a broad term (which is wrong to begin with since the item is not about the "term") of "beliefs associated with several Christian churches" while the French and the Spanish (at least) definitions say that it is the Christian denomination associated with the Catholic Church (as the one that is lead by the Pope in Rome). Since this item is associated with Wikipedia articles in French and Spanish (and others) that talk about the denomination associated with the Roman Catholic Church and there is no English Wikipedia article, I propose to change the definition in English. We can always create another item for the broader definition. Amqui (talk) 14:27, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

@Amqui: If I agree about your proposition to change the definition in English I have a problem with the concept of Christian denomination: what is the definition of that concept ? Is it representing the group of persons or the doctrine ? Doctrine and group of persons have to be separated, same for the organization: we should have 3 different concepts:

* doctrine: catholicism

* group of persons sharing the same belief: catholic

* organization promoting the doctrine and including the people: Catholic church Snipre (talk) 14:49, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

I used the word "denomination" here, but the French and Spanish definitions actually do not use that word. They talk about the "profession of faith" and the "confession", i.e. the doctrine as you are suggesting. So I propose the English definition to be "Christian doctrine associated with the faith of the Roman Catholic Church" or something similar. Amqui (talk) 15:03, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

@Amqui: My problem is I don't have a clear definition of christian or religious denomination. Do we use that concept to define a group of persons or a doctrine. If religious denomination is really a translation of the french word confession religieuse, then this concept is applicable to person and catholicism can't be defined as a instance of religious denomination.

So your proposition of "Christian doctrine associated with the faith of the Roman Catholic Church" is fine for me even if I would change it by the following one "Christian doctrine professed by the Roman Catholic Church" to create a stronger link between catholicism and Roman Catholic Church especially if someone want to discuss about a possible concept of catholicism outside of the Roman catholic Church. Snipre (talk) 19:11, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes I prefer your version. I don't know how to best define the concept of denomination. I think the word can be applied to both the group of persons and the doctrine, since the etymology of the word only means "name given to someone or something". Amqui (talk) 22:56, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Addition of a link

Hello. Could someone please add the link to the Italian article "Cattolicesimo"? https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cattolicesimo&redirect=no Thanks in advance

Should Catholicism be an instance of religion (Q9174)?

If it should not, then it may be a good idea to add a "different from" (P1889) field.

P140 property generate infinite loop on the Q1841 entity

When we follow the P140 property, the entity Q1841 refers to itself for that property. This produces an infinite loop. I don't think it's a good idea to define an entity by itself. I think the wikidata community recommends against it. Jcmoissinac (talk) 10:12, 6 March 2024 (UTC)