Talk:Q59544

Bonjour Fralambert, le PCI n'étant pas un patrimoine obligatoirement protégé par l'Unesco, je me suis permise de supprimer une partie de la description que vous aviez mise. Le PCI protégé par l'Unesco n'est pas simplement représenté par les pratiques inscrites sur l'une des deux listes ou sur le registre. Pour autant, les pratiques immatériels des inventaires nationaux sont bien du PCI, sans obligatoirement être "reconnues" par l'Unesco. --Meb89 (talk) 08:20, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Tu as certes raison Meb89, mais le problème que intangible cultural heritage (Q59544) fait référence implicitement au patrimoine immatériel reconnu par l'UNESCO dans les autres langues que le français. Une solution plus simple serait plus de créé un nouvel élément "patrimoine immatériel" qui deviendrait une sous-classe de toutes les autres type de PCI. --Fralambert (talk) 12:56, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Bonjour Fralambert. Il ne me semble pas que créer une classe Patrimoine immatériel règlera le problème d'autant que seuls les États partis signataire de la Convention peuvent prétendre présenter du PCI sur l'une des listes. Or, des pays non signataires font des inventaires nationaux de PCI (je pense au Canada ou à l'Écosse par exemple) et utilisent bien ce terme. De plus, il existe des articles spécifiques pour les chefs-d'œuvre Q877988, et chacune des trois listes Q4435332, Q21150917, Q17325849, justement pour faire la distinction avec les inventaires nationaux (comme celui de la France Q21011287 à titre d'exemple - d'autres sont prévus pour le wikipédia francophone), tandis que l'article PCI chapeaute l'ensemble... Et je ne pense pas que parler de patrimoine immatériel évitera davantage la confusion avec l'Unesco :/ Alors, je suis bien d'accord que pour la majorité, le PCI fait implicitement référence à l'Unesco, mais je crois que créer une catégorie "patrimoine immatériel" ne fera qu'accentuer cette tendance, ce qui me semble contraire à la Convention qui incite davantage à faire une sauvegarde nationale, l'inscription sur l'une des listes n'étant absolument pas une finalité en soi. À noter également que l'État français risque d'inclure le PCI en ces termes dans le prochain texte de loi pour le patrimoine (certes, ce texte ne concerne que la France). --Meb89 (talk) 08:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Statements in "intangible cultural heritage's items" to qualify them

Unlike World Heritage Site (Q9259), there is no definition of how to manage the inventory, date and code for "intangible cultural heritage". Well, at least I have not found. My proposal is that "intangible cultural heritage's items" must have:

• instance of (P31) = intangible cultural heritage (Q59544)
• catalog code (P528) = assigned code from UNESCO, with the qualifiers:
  • catalog (P972) = UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage Lists (Q4435332)
  • described at URL (P973) = http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/en/lists?RL=$1 ($1 = codi UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage Lists (Q4435332))
  • start time (P580) = proclaimed year
• I consider do not use the heritage designation (P1435) as it refers to "architectural, natural and cultural heritage", it's, always "tangible".

See sample in Patum de Berga (Q1816129). Some opinion / alternative procedure ?. Thanks--Amadalvarez (talk) 08:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Dear Amadalvarez

That's true, unlike World Heritage Site (Q9259), there is no definition of how to manage the national inventory (just the states parties are concerned) for intangible cultural heritage because "[...] each State Party shall draw up, in a manner geared to its own situation, one or more inventories of the intangible cultural heritage present in its territory." (art. 12). But the only obligation of States Parties is precisely the national inventory (art. 11), not the inscription on the Unesco lists. Fact, automatically assigned the Unesco item is not justified... This procedure can be effective for the elements inscribed on one of the lists , but not for national inventories...

--Meb89 (talk) 10:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

See more on this topic at Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Cultural_heritage#Help_with_Lefkara_lace - PKM (talk) 18:48, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

There is now a project for Intangible Cultural Heritage at Wikidata:WikiProject Intangible Cultural Heritage. // BR, Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) (talk) 11:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Intangible Cultural Heritage (Q84036549)

Hello. I think intangible cultural heritage (Q59544) and Intangible Cultural Heritage (Q84036549) are the same and thus should be merged. What do you think? Pamputt (talk) 12:12, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

@SR5, Hannes Röst, Taravyvan Adijene, Afaz, Charp238, OppsMetal: @Rima H (WMID): who have all edited 84036549) Do you agree to merge both items? Pamputt (talk) 09:27, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

@Pamputt: looking at this in more detail it seems to have a large amount of overlap, the question is whether there is intangible heritage that is *not* UNESCO designated? It seems one can make the argument that there is a general concept of "intangible heritage" that is existing with or without UNESCO and then there is the specific UNESCO definition that is one implementation of recognizing such heritage. In practice the distinction does not seem to be relevant. Thoughts? --Hannes Röst (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

@Hannes Röst: I found that the French Ministry of Culture has a list of intangible heritage for France (probably possible to create a new property for it). So, I think this is a good approach to keep one global item (intangible cultural heritage (Q59544)) and a specific one for UNESCO (Intangible Cultural Heritage (Q84036549)). Now, if we do so, we need to move several (all?) statements and Wikipedia sitelinks from intangible cultural heritage (Q59544) to Intangible Cultural Heritage (Q84036549) because for now intangible cultural heritage (Q59544) is clearly about UNESCO ICH. The links to eowiki on Intangible Cultural Heritage (Q84036549) should also probably be moved to a new item. Should I start to rearrange everything? Pamputt (talk) 20:43, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Finally, I moved all the sitelinks to Intangible Cultural Heritage (Q84036549) so that we have now a clear separation between the general concept of Intangible Cultural Heritage and the UNESCO one. Because I do not speak all languages, maybe some sitelinks should go to intangible cultural heritage (Q59544) instead of Intangible Cultural Heritage (Q84036549), so do not hesitate to fix it. Pamputt (talk) 22:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)