User talk:TwoWings
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Welcome to Wikidata, TwoWings!
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Best regards! Jon Harald Søby (talk) 13:33, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
EUTA theatre ID for the Comédie-Française[edit]
I removed the EUTA theatre ID 384 for Q61460498 (theatre company), since the information refers to the building Q836007. I do not think we need it on both pages. --Robert.Allen (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: You're right, thanks. And in fact, it refers more specifically to Salle Richelieu (Q3469884). --TwoWings (talk) 17:07, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- The term "salle" appears to have somewhat different meanings, depending on the context. Salle Richelieu (Q3469884) in this instance only refers to the auditorium itself, rather than the entire buildinng, which also includes the stage and backstage areas ("théâtre"), the foyers, and administrative offices. It's probably better to keep it on the page for the building (Q836007). --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: In this case, this mainly refers to "Salle Richelieu". And in fact, there's not really any building called "Comédie-Française", since "Comédie-Française", as you said, refers to the company, which uses the salle Richelieu (and of course its backstage area, etc) within the Palais-Royal (Q329948). The item Q836007 is, in fact, not really pertinent. --TwoWings (talk) 17:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree the use of these terms can be confusing, but in certain contexts the French distinguish within a theatre building between the "salle" (auditorium or seating area) and the "théâtre", the stage and the wings, etc. Also, it is quite common for theatre buildings to take the name of the theatre company that is the principal occupant. Thus, Q836007 is for the building, and Q3469884 is for the auditorium itself, not other parts of the building. That's why it has the property "part of" Q836007 and the latter has the property "has part" Q3469884. --Robert.Allen (talk) 18:09, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: Just for the information, I am French, so I know the different meanings of "salle" ! But as I said, I think it's a mistake to consider there's a building called "Comédie-Française", and I think this building item should be deleted. As it's written here on the C-F official website, the place is "bâtiment Richelieu" (Richelieu building), which is, in fact, a part of the Palais-Royal. Also, here, it's written "la Salle Richelieu est le théâtre historique de la Comédie-Française depuis 1799" (the salle Richelieu is the historical theatre of the C-F since 1789). As you can see, the Salle Richelieu IS a building, although it's a part of the Palais-Royal. --TwoWings (talk) 19:40, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see any need to delete any of the Wikidata items: the one for the hall or auditorium (Q3469884), which is part of the building (Q836007), which is part of the Palais-Royal (Q329948). Perhaps the descriptive language labels should be modified, but the Wikidata items themselves seem correct to me. Here is an architectural drawing from Donnet: Commons:File:Salle Richelieu - Donnet 1821 plate9 GB-Ghent composite.jpg. Note the auditorium is labelled "Salle", the area under the stage is "Dessous du Théâtre", while the building itself is labelled "Théâtre Français". --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:16, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I made some other changes which should help to clarify the situation, including moving the link to the article on the building to the correct Wikidata item and adding a new Commons:Category:Auditorium of the Comédie-Française. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: Couldn't you wait and talk before changing things like that?! I think that what you're doing is clearly against WP:ORIGINAL. Strictly speaking, "Comédie-Française" doesn't refer to a place but to a theatrical institution/company. It uses several places, and the main one is the Salle Richelieu, which IS the name of the theatre (the place) within a larger building called Palais-Royal. There's NO theatre (place) called "Théâtre de la Comédie-Française" and there is NO REASON to invent a new name for the Salle Richelieu by calling it "Salle du Théâtre de la Comédie-Française" ! I've left several messages on French WP to ask for help to resolve those problems, but I do think there is only one problem, and I said it : Q836007 is useless and has to be deleted. Until that, please do not try to invent things and I'll revert some of what you done (per WP:ORIGINAL). --TwoWings (talk) 07:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- These names are not WP:ORIGINAL, check Ayers, who calls the theatre "today's Comédie-Française", and the example I linked before, Donnet, who calls it Théâtre-Français. I think your comments may be a bit more original and perhaps dogmatic. From my reading of several different sources, Salle Richelieu, Comédie-Française, Théâtre-Français, and Théâtre de la Comédie-Française have all been used to refer to this building (and others). The latter names are more generic and have also been used to refer, for example, the theatre now known as the Odéon. And the name Salle de la rue de Richelieu was also sometimes used for Montansier's former theatre located on the site of Square Louvois. However, as a compromise have merged the Wikidata items rather than deleting one of them. I don't insist on a separate item for the auditorium. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: There is nothing dogmatic, I try to be rigorous! When people use "Comédie-Française" or "Théâtre-Français" to speak about the place, it's either a mistake or a metonymy! Moreover your example of Donnet file doesn't prove anything: there's no clue that may tell us that the title is about a place and not about the institution using that place. It's not about being "generic", it's about not inventing names! Your example about the Odéon also proves you're wrong: when someone says/writes "Théâtre de la Comédie-Française", it's just an expression meaning "the theatre used by the Comédie-Française", it's not the name of the place. --TwoWings (talk) 08:27, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: Of course, we may mention those names as alternative names (but I don't think we really need all the writings : capital letters or not, dash or not...), but we may not use it as the main title nor have separate items. --TwoWings (talk) 08:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Donnet's name is on an architectural drawqing of the building. Could not be more clear. I'm afraid you are being more rigorous than most reliable, verifiable sources. Find a source that says "Salle Richelieu" is the one and only name for this building. In fact, Nicole Wild gives a number of historical names (apellations) in her item on the Salle Richelieu in her book Dictionnaire des théâtres parisiens au XIXe siècle (Q60774720). In any case, I'm happy you agree there are alternative names. I also agree with you, the list of alternative names could be greatly pruned. I think someone else added all of these. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:59, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- While we've been debating this, I was able to add Salle Richelieu. So obviously I agree that Salle Richelieu is a good choice as a primary name for the building. Anyway, I hope you are happier with the current state of things. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:13, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- In fact those alternative names seem to have also been older names, as your sources tend to show it. But the links I gave above (on the official website of the Comédie-Française) tend to prove that the current official name of the building/place is Salle Richelieu (as the theatre part of the Palais-Royal and not only the auditorium itself), the other names being alternative names still used (and sometimes largely used) in various sources - and they are of course quite logical/understandable uses (metonymies or not). I think we've reached a rather good compromise, and it was a need in order to have a clearer situation about those topics on Wikidata. Thanks for your help. --TwoWings (talk) 09:37, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- While we've been debating this, I was able to add Salle Richelieu. So obviously I agree that Salle Richelieu is a good choice as a primary name for the building. Anyway, I hope you are happier with the current state of things. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:13, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Donnet's name is on an architectural drawqing of the building. Could not be more clear. I'm afraid you are being more rigorous than most reliable, verifiable sources. Find a source that says "Salle Richelieu" is the one and only name for this building. In fact, Nicole Wild gives a number of historical names (apellations) in her item on the Salle Richelieu in her book Dictionnaire des théâtres parisiens au XIXe siècle (Q60774720). In any case, I'm happy you agree there are alternative names. I also agree with you, the list of alternative names could be greatly pruned. I think someone else added all of these. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:59, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- These names are not WP:ORIGINAL, check Ayers, who calls the theatre "today's Comédie-Française", and the example I linked before, Donnet, who calls it Théâtre-Français. I think your comments may be a bit more original and perhaps dogmatic. From my reading of several different sources, Salle Richelieu, Comédie-Française, Théâtre-Français, and Théâtre de la Comédie-Française have all been used to refer to this building (and others). The latter names are more generic and have also been used to refer, for example, the theatre now known as the Odéon. And the name Salle de la rue de Richelieu was also sometimes used for Montansier's former theatre located on the site of Square Louvois. However, as a compromise have merged the Wikidata items rather than deleting one of them. I don't insist on a separate item for the auditorium. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: Couldn't you wait and talk before changing things like that?! I think that what you're doing is clearly against WP:ORIGINAL. Strictly speaking, "Comédie-Française" doesn't refer to a place but to a theatrical institution/company. It uses several places, and the main one is the Salle Richelieu, which IS the name of the theatre (the place) within a larger building called Palais-Royal. There's NO theatre (place) called "Théâtre de la Comédie-Française" and there is NO REASON to invent a new name for the Salle Richelieu by calling it "Salle du Théâtre de la Comédie-Française" ! I've left several messages on French WP to ask for help to resolve those problems, but I do think there is only one problem, and I said it : Q836007 is useless and has to be deleted. Until that, please do not try to invent things and I'll revert some of what you done (per WP:ORIGINAL). --TwoWings (talk) 07:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- I made some other changes which should help to clarify the situation, including moving the link to the article on the building to the correct Wikidata item and adding a new Commons:Category:Auditorium of the Comédie-Française. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see any need to delete any of the Wikidata items: the one for the hall or auditorium (Q3469884), which is part of the building (Q836007), which is part of the Palais-Royal (Q329948). Perhaps the descriptive language labels should be modified, but the Wikidata items themselves seem correct to me. Here is an architectural drawing from Donnet: Commons:File:Salle Richelieu - Donnet 1821 plate9 GB-Ghent composite.jpg. Note the auditorium is labelled "Salle", the area under the stage is "Dessous du Théâtre", while the building itself is labelled "Théâtre Français". --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:16, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: Just for the information, I am French, so I know the different meanings of "salle" ! But as I said, I think it's a mistake to consider there's a building called "Comédie-Française", and I think this building item should be deleted. As it's written here on the C-F official website, the place is "bâtiment Richelieu" (Richelieu building), which is, in fact, a part of the Palais-Royal. Also, here, it's written "la Salle Richelieu est le théâtre historique de la Comédie-Française depuis 1799" (the salle Richelieu is the historical theatre of the C-F since 1789). As you can see, the Salle Richelieu IS a building, although it's a part of the Palais-Royal. --TwoWings (talk) 19:40, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree the use of these terms can be confusing, but in certain contexts the French distinguish within a theatre building between the "salle" (auditorium or seating area) and the "théâtre", the stage and the wings, etc. Also, it is quite common for theatre buildings to take the name of the theatre company that is the principal occupant. Thus, Q836007 is for the building, and Q3469884 is for the auditorium itself, not other parts of the building. That's why it has the property "part of" Q836007 and the latter has the property "has part" Q3469884. --Robert.Allen (talk) 18:09, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert.Allen: In this case, this mainly refers to "Salle Richelieu". And in fact, there's not really any building called "Comédie-Française", since "Comédie-Française", as you said, refers to the company, which uses the salle Richelieu (and of course its backstage area, etc) within the Palais-Royal (Q329948). The item Q836007 is, in fact, not really pertinent. --TwoWings (talk) 17:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- The term "salle" appears to have somewhat different meanings, depending on the context. Salle Richelieu (Q3469884) in this instance only refers to the auditorium itself, rather than the entire buildinng, which also includes the stage and backstage areas ("théâtre"), the foyers, and administrative offices. It's probably better to keep it on the page for the building (Q836007). --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
