Wikidata:Property proposal/thesaurus' properties
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thesaurus' properties[edit]
thesaurus's main topic[edit]
Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects
| Description | primary topic of the subject Wikimedia thesaurus |
|---|---|
| Represents | Wiktionary thesaurus page (Q31209114) |
| Data type | Item |
| Example 1 | Thesaurus:snake (Q82477488) → snake (Q2102) |
| Example 2 | Thesaurus:cat (Q101128192) → house cat (Q146) |
| Expected completeness | eventually complete (Q21873974) |
| See also | thesaurus's main topic |
| Single-value constraint | yes |
| Distinct-values constraint | yes |
thesaurus combines topics[edit]
Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects
| Description | this theasurus combines (intersects) these two or more topics |
|---|---|
| Represents | Wiktionary thesaurus page (Q31209114) |
| Data type | Item |
| Example 1 | Thesaurus:fruit (Lakota language) (Q73120032) → fruit (Q3314483), Lakota (Q33537) |
| Example 2 | Thesaurus:fr:chat (Q30699903) → house cat (Q146), French (Q150) |
| Expected completeness | eventually complete (Q21873974) |
| See also | thesaurus combines topics |
| Single-value constraint | no |
| Distinct-values constraint | no |
topic's main thesaurus[edit]
Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects
| Description | main Wikimedia theasurus |
|---|---|
| Represents | Wiktionary thesaurus page (Q31209114) |
| Data type | Item |
| Example 1 | fruit (Q3314483) → Thesaurus:fruit (Lakota language) (Q73120032) ? |
| Example 2 | snake (Q2102) → Thesaurus:snake (Q82477488) |
| Expected completeness | eventually complete (Q21873974) |
| See also | thesaurus' main topic |
| Single-value constraint | yes |
| Distinct-values constraint | yes |
Motivation[edit]
Some Wiktionary projects use thesauri to organise information in the same way as categories. We (as a Wiktionary contributors) think it is better to have specific properties for these "objects" (as is done for other "objects" in the Wikimedia ecosystem: categories, lists, templates, etc.). I therefore propose the creation of these 3 properties by mimicking the properties for categories. Pamputt (talk) 17:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
Discussion[edit]
Support As proposer. Pamputt (talk) 18:34, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
Comment @Pamputt: Proposers shouldn't comment to support their own proposals, it's assumed, and this can confuse later viewers of the proposal. Secondly - can you explain wiktionary thesaurus pages a bit more for those of us not familiar with them? The way they are handled in French and English wiktionaries seems to be different, and I'm not convinced the links you propose are actually the right way to do this. It seems like main subject (P921) would handle your first proposal adequately but I'm not quite sure on that given the way these are structured. As to the second proposal, I see category combines topics (P971) is specific to categories so it would make sense to have something separate here, though perhaps there are alternatives. On the third one - this is just an inverse of the first proposed property? I don't think we want to do that. ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:42, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- These three properties correspond with category's main topic (P301), topic's main category (P910) and category combines topics (P971).
- To explain what is a Wiktionary thesaurus, I can copy the introductory sentence of en:Wiktionary:Thesaurus, i.e. a thesaurus [is] a dictionary of synonyms, antonyms, and further semantically related terms such as hyponyms, hypernyms, meronyms, and holonyms. The informations is not presented exactly the same way between enwiktionary and frwiktionary, but thesauri on both Wiktionary projects are supposed to have the same words ultimately.
- About the first proposal, yes, main subject (P921) may fit for thesaurus but I think a separate property will be useful to optimize SPARQL queries (actually it is the same for the categories; we may use {[P|921}} for them but category's main topic (P301) is preferred.
- About the third proposal, yes this is the inverse of the first one. I am confused with the Wikidata policy about inverse properties. We have category's main topic (P301) that is the inversed of topic's main category (P910) and we have many other couple of properties that are the inverse of each other. But I read time to time that it is not a "good practice". So, I do not strongly support the third proposal. Pamputt (talk) 22:07, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Regarding the differences between en and fr wiktionaries, it looks like the en pages are always a list of (English) synonyms or maybe slightly related "-nyms" but not much more. On the other hand the fr pages seem to be a mix of multi-language pages about the same topic, with each language page being somewhat variable but in particular the French ones have a huge amount of information on words relating to the topic - not just synonyms but words from all kinds of contexts. These seem like different things so I'm wondering if this sort of property is really the best way to express what's going on here. But I really don't know much about how this has been done in general in the wiktionaries, or even if this holds beyond these few examples in en and fr. ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:51, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- On inverse properties - there are a number from the early days of Wikidata (property #'s below 1000) but it has been discouraged in recent years as inverses are redundant data with an additional maintenance burden (if a relation is there in one direction but not the other, which side of the relation is correct?). In general for one-to-many relations it's best if the property is on the "many" side to keep the size of Wikidata items manageable. But I'm not clear here given the above issues with the structure of these thesaurus items whether it is actually a one-to-many or closer to a one-to-one relation? ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:56, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- Category:Thesauri (Q9140405) lists all Wiktionary projects that have thesauri. En and fr wiktionary are not alone. Chinese wiktionary, Spanish Wiktionary, Portugese Wiktionary and so on have many thesauri, so such properties would apply to several Wiktionary projects. Most of the Wiktionary projects do the same as enwiktionary, but it does not change the fact that they are all (incomplete) thesauri.
- As inverse properties are discouraged, proposal number 3 should not be created but for the two others, I do not see any better solution. Pamputt (talk) 15:10, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Support (French wiktionary user here.) The third one is the one I had thought of initially, before seeing the two others, and remains the one that makes most sense to me. (ie. if we had to keep only one, I'd favour number 3 over number 1) Exilexi (talk) 12:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Shouldn't it be "thesaurus's"? I believe " thesaurus' " implies multiple thesauruses. -wd-Ryan (Talk/Edits) 17:06, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- @Pamputt:, could you please clarify the comments above by @Wd-Ryan, ArthurPSmith:. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 12:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I did it. Thanks for the ping. Pamputt (talk) 15:10, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- I am not native English-speaker so I trust you ;-). So, you are probably right, "thesaurus's" is more correct. Pamputt (talk) 13:27, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Haha, it looks weird, but is correct. -wd-Ryan (Talk/Edits) 20:45, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Pamputt:, could you please clarify the comments above by @Wd-Ryan, ArthurPSmith:. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 12:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Support, an important property for Wiktionary.--Arbnos (talk) 20:56, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Pamputt, ArthurPSmith, Exilexi, Wd-Ryan, Arbnos:
Done as thesaurus's main topic (P12503), thesaurus combines topics (P12504), and topic's main thesaurus (P12505). Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 08:03, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
