Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Clubs

Clubs[edit]

There are many properties a club/team can have, I am writing the most basic that all can item can have.

Useful example: Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Team example

instance of (P31)[edit]

instance of (P31) -->association football team (Q15944511)
instance of (P31) -->women's association football team (Q28140340)
instance of (P31) -->association football club (Q476028) if I have understand correctly, that item is for sports club that has many sections, like academies, U20 team etc. So some football clubs can have more than one of those item. My suggestion is to create an item "association football academy". So, association football team (Q15944511), women's association football team (Q28140340) and "association football academy" would be sub classes of association football club (Q476028).

So,

- ⟨ FC Barcelona (Q7156)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ association football team (Q15944511)    ⟩
- ⟨ FC Barcelona Femení (Q522899)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ women's association football team (Q28140340)    ⟩
- ⟨ FC Barcelona Juvenil A (Q13562063)    ⟩ association football academy Search ⟨ P31 ⟩

One previous discussion: Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2017/01#Football teams

Discussion

Please correct the statements, can’t make sense about this section, and not sure of what you mean. A club usually has many team in france. Professional one have training ground (Q2945309)  

for players who might become professional player. Is "association football academy" supposed to be a subclass of « club » ? A club is an https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:EntityPage/Q43229, typically in france a association under the French law of 1901 (Q11513034)  

(a kind of nonprofit organization (Q163740) ). Club belongs to sports governing body (Q2485448)  

, and someone who wants to play typically has to pay to get a license from that federation. Then the club assign him to a team and he will play in some competition. So … no, teams really can’t be subclasses of club as none team is a club by itself. Clubs may have an A pro team that plays a major competitions. But teams belongs to club and the right relationship is « team part of club. author TomT0m / talk page 14:55, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@TomT0m: Please read Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2017/01#Football teams. Is really confusing. Maybe you understanding better than me. Xaris333 (talk) 02:22, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

FC Barcelona (Q7156) instance of (P31) association football team (Q15944511) etc. look good but not association football team (Q15944511) subclass of (P279) association football club (Q476028). This should be association football team (Q15944511) part of (P361) association football club (Q476028) --Pasleim (talk) 09:40, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do you realize that «FC» means « Football Club » ? Suggest to rename to « FC Barcelona major team » or something like that. author TomT0m / talk page 10:50, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Barcelona is a special case. They are using FC and to other non-football sections. Like FC Barcelona Lassa (Q54893). Xaris333 (talk) 10:55, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't able to find an item that is about a football club. All the item are about a men team or a women team or young team etc. No one is speaking general about a football club which have all of those section. Usually, we have item for the sport club and then item for the team of the sports club. Now, the item association football club (Q476028) (no link to en.wikipedia) has many wikipedia articles, that speak about an association football team. In the description of the item we have "organization, in which one or multiple groups of players are organized to compete as teams in association football (soccer)". Multiple groups. So it is refer to all the football teams a club has.

Another example,

⟨ Olympiacos CFP (Q12396315)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ sports club (Q847017)    ⟩
(the parent club)
⟨ Olympiacos F.C. (Q19628)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ association football team (Q15944511)    ⟩
(men football)
⟨ Olympiacos F.C. (women) (Q20055389)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ women's association football team (Q28140340)    ⟩
(women football)
⟨ Olympiacos F.C. (young teams) (Q19858137)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ football academy ⟩
(academy; the article speaks about all U-20, U-17, U-15, U-14, U-13, U-10 teams together)

and

⟨ Olympiacos F.C. (Q19628)    ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ Olympiacos CFP (Q12396315)    ⟩
(men football)
⟨ Olympiacos F.C. (women) (Q20055389)    ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ Olympiacos CFP (Q12396315)    ⟩
(women football)
⟨ Olympiacos F.C. (young teams) (Q19858137)    ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ Olympiacos CFP (Q12396315)    ⟩

and

⟨ association football team (Q15944511)    ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ association football club (Q476028)    ⟩
⟨ women's association football team (Q28140340)    ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ association football club (Q476028)    ⟩
⟨ football academy ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ association football club (Q476028)    ⟩

and

⟨ association football club (Q476028)    ⟩ part of (P361) ⟨ sports club (Q847017)    ⟩

If we had an item "Olympiacos Football Club" that is about all the football sections of Olympiacos, maybe it would be more clear. But I don't think we need it. According to all of the above, no item can have instance of (P31) -->association football club (Q476028) since all of them are about either men's team, either women team or other young sections. Xaris333 (talk) 11:29, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found pretty easily an item for a sport club with a football section : Olympique Lillois (Q2338486). Those are nonetheless necessary to express that, say a female/young/academy section section (second team) belongs to the same club. For example when I right this line on https://www.losc.fr/ the female section is front page. author TomT0m / talk page 09:20, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't understand. The item Olympique Lillois (Q2338486) is about a association football team (Q15944511). Read again more carefully what I have written. Of course there are thousands of sport clubs with a football section. I have said "I wasn't able to find an item that is about a football club." And I explain what I mean. Xaris333 (talk) 09:57, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, I did not. Did you mean « all articles on items with an «instance of : football club » claim actually talks about a team » ? author TomT0m / talk page 10:20, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The articles are about a football team. (Sometimes you can find a paragraph at the end about the academy or about a female team, but the main subject of the article is the male team. And in Wikidata we must have separate items for every team to use in other items and with properties. Otherwise will be confusing). That's why I believe no item instance of (P31) association football club (Q476028). Maybe there are some but I wasn't able to find. Xaris333 (talk) 11:24, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You aren't right with this. For example german article to FC Bayern Munich (Q15789) is about the sports club with all data to the club. The article is indeed dominated by the first male soccer team but that's normal because of their famousness. And this is so in many German articles to sports club.

And this is not wikipedia. So we should keep association football club (Q476028) as it is. The most sports clubs have more divisions (soccer, handball, ...) in Germany, each of them have one or more teams, which then take part in competitions. Therefore if we want to create a correct DB-Structure, there shall be a sports club as organization, which many different teams belonging to this club. And competitions shall link to teams not sport clubs. But that's many work. --Balû (talk) 08:34, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, reading the discussion about P641 at competitions, I am thinking that maybe we should rename association football club (Q476028) to "football team" and use that structure:

⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)  

 ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ association football club (Q476028)  

 ⟩

(as football team)

⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)  

 ⟩ sport (P641) ⟨ association football (Q2736)  

 ⟩

⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)  

 ⟩ competition class (P2094) ⟨ women's association football (Q606060)  

 ⟩

(or women's sports (Q920057)?)

⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)  

 ⟩ competition class (P2094) ⟨ national association football team (Q6979593)  

 ⟩

(or national sports team (Q1194951)?)

⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)  

 ⟩ competition class (P2094) ⟨ under-19 sport (Q21193184)  

 ⟩

So, we don't need to have men football team, women football team and U21 team item etc. We can use the above structure. Xaris333 (talk) 14:08, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to keep them and to avoid statements by using the scheme :

⟨ female football team ⟩ has quality Search ⟨ values in qualifier ⟩
competition class (P2094) ⟨ woman (Q467)    ⟩

With the following meaning for

⟨ class item ⟩ has quality Search ⟨ values in qualifier ⟩
Prop Search ⟨ Val ⟩

: every instance of « class item » is assumed to have a statement

⟨ class item instance ⟩ Prop Search ⟨ Val ⟩

.

This also works for sport team :

⟨ association foot team ⟩ subclass of (P279) ⟨ sport team ⟩
with
⟨ association foot team ⟩ has quality Search ⟨ values in qualifier ⟩
sport (P641) ⟨ association foot ⟩
.

That if you want to follow the logic and remove the « foot team » item and replace it with « instance of : team » « sport : soccer ». Then delete the « sport team » item and replace with « team » with « field of work : sport » and so on …

with my scheme we don’t have to put the statements in all female team, just an « instance of » one for the same meaning. author TomT0m / talk page 15:09, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@TomT0m: I am not sure if I have understood. What is the problem with the structure below? I take an example that cover many cases (national team, women's team, young team). With this structure we can easily find, with SPARQL, the young women's national teams for example. And every other case of teams. How would be your suggestion for France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)?

⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ association football club (Q476028)    ⟩
or sports team (Q12973014)
⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)    ⟩ sport (P641) ⟨ association football (Q2736)    ⟩
⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)    ⟩ competition class (P2094) ⟨ women's association football (Q606060)    ⟩
⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)    ⟩ competition class (P2094) ⟨ national association football team (Q6979593)    ⟩
⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)    ⟩ competition class (P2094) ⟨ under-19 sport (Q21193184)    ⟩

Xaris333 (talk) 15:32, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hum, what’s with competition class (P2094) ??? I think this is supposed to represent the class of stuff that kind participate in an event, to a team or competition, but it seem that it’s been created by the person who proposed it with no discussion at all. If this is like that, it’s to be used to express that women can be member of the team, or that football team can participate in the world cup …

⟨ world cup ⟩ qualification class Search ⟨ national football team ⟩

but definitely not

⟨ world cup ⟩ qualification class Search ⟨ football ⟩

.

@Joshbaumgartner: any opinion ?

So

⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)  

 ⟩ competition class (P2094) ⟨ national association football team (Q6979593)  

 ⟩

is definitely not meaningful.

My proposition would be

⟨ France women's national under-19 association football team (Q32970)    ⟩ instance of (P31) ⟨ national women -19 foot team ⟩
⟨ national women -19 foot team ⟩ subclass of (P279) ⟨ national foot team ⟩
⟨ national women -19 foot team ⟩ subclass of (P279) ⟨ female team ⟩
⟨ national women -19 foot team ⟩ subclass of (P279) ⟨ young team ⟩

with

⟨ female team ⟩ subclass of (P279) ⟨ sport team ⟩

⟨ young team ⟩ subclass of (P279) ⟨ sport team ⟩

⟨ female team ⟩ has quality Search ⟨ Q23766486 ⟩
qualification class Search ⟨ women ⟩

- women are members of female sport team

⟨ foot team ⟩ has quality Search ⟨ Q23766486 ⟩
sport (P641) ⟨ football ⟩

⟨ young team ⟩ has quality Search ⟨ Q23766486 ⟩
qualification class Search ⟨ -19 in football ⟩

To define the class « young in football » something like

⟨ -19 in football ⟩ subclass of (P279) ⟨ human (Q5)  

 ⟩

⟨ -19 in football ⟩ has quality Search ⟨ Q23766486 ⟩
age Search ⟨  15 to 19 years ⟩

(we would need an « age » property)

To query this, either we query instances of « national women -19 foot team », easy enough : « ?team P31/P279* Q32970 ».

To query by criteria, either query classes that are both instances of « female team » and « young team », for example : « ?team P31/P279* femaleteam, youngteam »

or a little bit more advanced, equivalently

select * {
  ?item wdt:P31/wdt:P279*/p:P1552 [ pq:P2094 woman, young]  #to union to direct claims
}

(I’m working on a template to generate this from a property/value pair : {{Query implicit instances}}).

Overall, this makes that each team will have one statement instead of the ones you propose. author TomT0m / talk page 13:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@TomT0m: Please read Wikidata:WikiProject Association football/Discussion about properties/Competitions#P641 Xaris333 (talk) 15:18, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]