Wikidata talk:Menu Challenge/Wikimania 2019/list

Q298714

@Ainali: Are you sure you want to 'translate' a disambiguation page? Effeietsanders (talk) 22:40, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh no. That is a mistake. I did not realize it was disambiguation page. Neither of the disambiguations are correct wither. I will drop it from the challenge. Ainali (talk) 08:31, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The same for afternoon (Q283102); I do not see the link with the menu. Pamputt (talk) 06:15, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

This is not a disambiguation page. It will be in the header, describing what meal is being served (combined with snack (Q749316).). Ainali (talk) 08:31, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Q65547739

is this intended to be the same as Q2607161? Effeietsanders (talk) 22:54, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes! Merging them will be awarded with 10 points! Ainali (talk) 08:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Effeietsanders, Ainali: is it the same thought? Is a fillet always made of breast and breast always made in fillet? The first may be true (and I'm not even entirely sure) but the second seems wrong. So, I would say that's two different things. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 13:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure which of the versions Ainali was intending to link to - hence the question :) Slight nuances across languages. Effeietsanders (talk) 16:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh, alright maybe they are not always the same not. I was intending to link to fillet. Ainali (talk) 17:15, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

marinating (Q725668)

@Ainali:: marination (Q725668) has been listed twice in the "List of items to improve and translate" at number 48 and again on number 74. Regards, Marajozkee (talk) 15:13, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

+1 with @Marajozkee: and as noted on Talk:Q725668 « The translations do no distinguish well between the process and the liquid. » (in most languages it's more or less the same but not in Breton), I guess this item should be split in two, no? A gln, VIGNERON (talk) 15:31, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh, what a blunder by me. Anyway, I intended to lik to the process, so if a new item is created, let it be the liquid. Ainali (talk) 17:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Duplicate - bilberry (Q60708120)?

I'm pretty sure bilberry (Q60708120) was a duplicate of blueberry (Q5812410) so I merged them. Let me know if folks think otherwise. -- Fuzheado (talk) 09:39, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Fuzheado: +0.8, not sure. Technically it's two different fruits that for some reason are called the same in most languages (but not always, even English does sometimes the distinction between blueberries and bilberries), that said they're close (same Vaccinium genus) so merge still seems a good idea. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 11:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh, I thought both items was both referring to the bilberry when I awarded the points. If it is not they should be split again. At least here in Sweden they are both sold under different names and used mostly differently as well (for example you would never make queen's jam (Q10477006) of american blueberries, only of bilberries). And they do taste and look very differently too. Ainali (talk) 15:02, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I defer to your superior knowledge of European berries. Feel free to revert. But I would most certainly include two different from (P1889) statements! -- Fuzheado (talk) 16:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how to revert a merge. Anyone? Ainali (talk) 23:05, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I believe I solved it. Ainali (talk) 11:05, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Wrong item for cardamom (Q14625808)?

Seems that rather than cardamom (Q14625808) (only 1 language link), the item Elettaria cardamomum (Q33466) should be used instead? -- Fuzheado (talk) 09:44, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

No, see my reasoning for parsley below. Ainali (talk) 14:58, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Wrong item for parsley (Q65522500)

Should we be using parsley (Q25284) instead? -- Fuzheado (talk) 09:54, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

It depends, does some languages make the distinction between the plant as a species and the edible herb? I see that many languages use the scentific "latin" name for the species so it's probably better to use parsley (Q65522500). Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 12:00, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

No, as I understood it, parsley (Q25284) refers to the entire plant (including roots). parsley (Q65522500) is only the edible part. This is common on most (but not all) taxons (you don't eat a taxon, you eat something it produce). Ainali (talk) 14:58, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah in general I'm at a loss in these situations - splitting is technically the right thing to do, scientifically and pedeantically, but in practicality it is a major pain in the ass and hinders straight-forward discoverability and usability. I don't have a great solution. -- Fuzheado (talk) 16:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Cauliflower creme, etc?

What are these? Soups? Weird creme brulees? Paste-like food? Something whipped? Sauces? Even Google doesn't seem to know (olive creme returns ghits for beauty projects). -Yupik (talk) 03:22, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately I haven't seen them myself either. I have just seen them on the menu, and they are on the baguettes, in the wraps, on rye bread etc. So my guess is something paste-like. Ainali (talk) 09:48, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

And assumedly spreadable. I can't wait to try these out to see what they are :D -Yupik (talk) 19:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

It's not something really defined. In Northern Europe, Cauliflower cream is traditionally a sauce, made of pureed cauliflowers, usually with spices and milk. The Mediterranean version is more akin to a purée, served as a side or accompagnement and contains additional vegetables (potatoes, leeks,...) without milk. It can be made semi-liquid (with vegetable broth added) or semi-solid (and can be used as a Mayonnaise substitute - the "spreadable" sort). The only common thing is "it's not a dessert".

for example, look at these 3 recipe:

https://pinchofyum.com/creamy-cauliflower-sauce = the sauce style

https://www.ricardocuisine.com/recettes/3376-creme-de-chou-fleur = the soup style, with more consistency

https://www.cuisineactuelle.fr/recettes/saint-jacques-sur-creme-de-chou-fleur-336138 = the more solid style, with milk cream.

It would have been easier with the cauliflower rice...

--Zeugma fr (talk) 11:47, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Tomato salsa and sauce

What's the difference between tomato sauce (Q3596097) and tomato salsa (Q65547517)? --Millars (talk) 23:02, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Pictures in the items need to be more of a "macro" style, to put into evidence the differences.

tomato sauce (Q3596097): pureed tomatoes. Produced with blender (Q501862).

tomato salsa (Q65547517): finely chopped tomatoes (not pureed, there are still chunks of tomato). Usually made with a mandoline (Q1501252) or a vegetable slicer (missing in wikidata?).

And no, it's not the same as gazpacho (Q202677) or ketchup (Q178143)... --Zeugma fr (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Is it the same?

Hello. In my opinion, Olivada (Q2374712) and olive creme (Q65561290) are the same? What do you think? --Millars (talk) 23:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure. But would advice to wait with a merge until we are, since I believe the creme, may have some other ingredients in it. Ainali (talk) 10:14, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Broccoli vs broccoli?

Anyone know what the diff is between Q47722 and Q57544960? -Yupik (talk) 15:37, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the same case as for parsley (Q65522500) above. broccoli (Q47722) is the entire plant with roots and all. broccoli (Q57544960) is produced by broccoli (Q47722) and what you find in a grocery store, ie, the edible parts. Ainali (talk) 19:28, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Ok, this probably needs to be made more clear with statements then. -Yupik (talk) 23:48, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Are the existing statements broccoli (Q47722)this taxon is source of (P1672)broccoli (Q57544960) and broccoli (Q57544960)natural product of taxon (P1582)broccoli (Q47722) not enough? Ainali (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Q40763 (seed) and how some languages distinguish between which are meant to be planted or eaten

While translating I stumbled upon seed (Q40763) and although the languages I was planning to translate were already translated something caught my eye. I noticed that this was listed in the menu as a food item, under the assumption that every language would just call the biologically studied structure, the seed that is meant for planting the same as it would call the seed that is meant for consumption. The problem is, in fact quiet a few (such as Persian or Arabic) make distinctions when it comes to this, although they have words to cover both meanings.

However some, at least from what I know Turkish, don't have a single word to cover both meanings. Again speaking for Turkish here, with some exceptions here and there, the general word for a seed you can plant is tohum (the currently listed translation) and the word for an edible seed is çekirdek. You can actually find some which are called seeds such as linseed which is translated as keten tohumu but if one is dealing with non-specific seeds it would take some time for people to understand what is being referred to.

There is no disambiguation page for this on the English wiki, and sadly the relevant entry for this on the Turkish disambiguation page under çekirdek links to itself. I could propose a new item to replace this one, but the issue is, as I stated above, that even languages that do have such distinctions can generally find a word to cover both. Turkish does have a few, but all of these are either too archaic or regionally colloquial to be recognizable.

So with all that in mind, would the organizers be willing to translate a single word in a single language differently from the listed translation, or does anyone think there might be a compromise to be made here. Themadprogramer (talk) 08:47, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

There seem to be two separate questions at hand. 1. How should the concept of seed be modeled? From this aspect I would suggest bringing up the discussion on the talk page of seed and perhaps some related wiki project (as I don't know the answer myself). 2. Regarding the menu, all translations are fetched through Wikidata and their Q-id. I have no clue in how to make an exception for one language. So for that to work, someone else would have to do the work for me. If someone would, and if it turns out 1. is not solvable, I would be willing to incorporate it. Ainali (talk) 10:17, 1 August 2019 (UTC)