Wikidata talk:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Archive/2020

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2020 PD day

James Ensor is now in public domain, and we have quite some work here: Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Creator/James Ensor. We probably have other such lists of painters who went to PD as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:55, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Here's a SPARQL query that gives all people that are creator (P170) of at least one painting on Wikidata and have died in 1949. Husky (talk) 22:23, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
select distinct ?person ?personLabel (sample(?died) as ?died) where {
  ?person wdt:P570 ?died.
  ?painting wdt:P170 ?person;
            wdt:P31 wd:Q3305213.
  filter (?died < "1950-01-01T00:00:00Z"^^xsd:dateTime && ?died >= "1949-01-01T00:00:00Z"^^xsd:dateTime)
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
} group by ?person ?personLabel ?died order by ?personLabel
Try it!
Thank you.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:31, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
@Ymblanter, Husky: yes, quite a few. Multichill (talk) 17:40, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Nice, some pretty good images! Husky (talk) 20:40, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Museums in Paris release 100.000 scans of CC0 images

This might be of any interest. (Source; link) Veverve (talk) 11:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

(Copied from c:Commons:Village_pump) --Jarekt (talk) 15:01, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
@Jarekt: See also http://www.parismusees.paris.fr/fr/actualite/open-content-plus-de-100-000-oeuvres-des-collections-des-musees-de-la-ville-de-paris-en . It's a partnership with Wikimedia France and they're working on getting the content on Commons too. I might add the missing paintings to Wikidata at some point if that doesn't get picked up by the French users. Multichill (talk) 19:08, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Dashboard for analyze completeness of creators and collections

WikiProject sum of all paintings has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead.

Hi, following the good work done in Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Property statistics, the {{Property dashboard}} tool may be used to drill down in collection or creators to know and improve its completeness. Use Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Property statistics/Collection and Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Property statistics/Creator, as a sandbox, changing the Qid of collection/creator you want to analize (instructions inside code). Amadalvarez (talk) 09:03, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Catalog of American Portraits vs National Portrait Gallery (US)

I recently created Catalog of American Portraits (Q84431546) which is an index of some 200,000 portraits in the National Portrait Gallery (Q1967614) as well as portraits in other institutions and private collections ([1][2]). The property National Portrait Gallery (United States) object ID (P6152), as described and structured, is exclusive only to works within the National Portrait Gallery, however, P6152 also works for non-NPG paintings in the Catalog of American Portraits, albeit with an error message. See for example Mrs. Richard Peters (Abigail Willing) (Q20170064). Would it be prudent to create a new property ID for the Catalog of American Portraits, or should we expand the scope of the existing property? If this is a major change, this discussion can move to the main Wikidata talk page. -Animalparty (talk) 20:13, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Animalparty, I think Mrs. Richard Peters (Abigail Willing) (Q20170064) uses National Portrait Gallery (United States) object ID (P6152) properly. If items from other Galleries can be found in NPG database, so be it and we do not need new property for it. If that use, violates some constraints than the constraints have to be relaxed or removed. That should be discussed at that property talk page. --Jarekt (talk) 01:03, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

To Merge or Not to Merge, That is the Question

What shall we do with items where all the properties, including the image, are identical with the only exception of the institution identifier. See Kaiumers, the First King of Persia (Q64538958), Kaiumers, the First King of Persia (Q64538960). Or Sultan Murad III receiving a book (Q64537998) and Sultan Murad III receiving a book (Q64538040). --Jarekt (talk) 01:31, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

See above for a descussion of this regarding prints. The conclusion was "probably not". In this case, it's annoying because the image is the same. Without a confirmation of some sort, I would not merge, since it appears to be a page of a manuscript (and there may be multiple versions, with the incorrect image added to one of them). Jane023 (talk) 18:07, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Format again - proposal for depicted format

This continues our discussion on formats. See the property proposal here: Wikidata:Property proposal/depicted format. Jane023 (talk) 18:08, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Modeling artistic themes

Opening a discussion here of how to deal with granular themes/subjects of artworks... Consider Veil of Veronica (Q608632) ((alleged) physical relic as well as artistic theme), Veil of Veronica held up by Veronica (Q85844812) (subclass of VOV theme/subject but not of VOV relic), The Crucifixion (Q17325193) (painting that depicts Veronica holding VoV as part of a larger scene), Veil of Veronica held up by Veronica (Q85844812) (painting of Veronica holding VOV). How should this all be modeled? What is an instance and what is a subclass? Sidenote: Everything in the universe could be "artistic theme" so I hate classifying everything as that. And for the large scene, do we say depicts Veil of Veronica held up by Veronica (Q85844812) or treat Veil of Veronica held up by Veronica (Q85844812) as a freestanding artistic theme only? Similar questions could apply to things in Iconclass like 73B27 the midwives adoring the Christ-child, Mary and Joseph may be present which is a subclass of the artistic theme of the Nativity but arguably not a subclass of the biblical episode of the Nativity (the Bible doesn't say anything about midwives). Have others given thought to this? Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:20, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Changing the way we use anonymous (Q4233718)

WikiProject sum of all paintings has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead. On the village pump a conversation is happening about how we should handle anonymous (Q4233718). Please have a look. Multichill (talk) 19:32, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

instance_of_=_item_of_collection_or_exhibition

Some artworks like Still Life with Sweets (Q2349662) have instance of (P31) set to painting (Q3305213) and item of collection or exhibition (Q18593264). I started a discussion at Talk:Q18593264#instance_of_=_item_of_collection_or_exhibition about it. Please join there. --Jarekt (talk) 14:07, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

How to specify "attributed to"?

How should we specify works only "attributed to" creators? Do we list the attributed creator by name, with a qualifier of sorts? And in a related issue, Quick Statements from Commons templates seem to interpret {{Creator:Name|attributed to}} as anonymous (Q4233718) (example from File:Mrs. Augustus Jay MET ap1970.283.5.jpg). This seems suboptimal. Thanks, -Animalparty (talk) 21:50, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Just use P170 for the artist. Whether it is attributed or signed doesn't matter. When it is attributed to more than one artist over time, add all artists withh P170 and deprecate all the ones that don't apply. Jane023 (talk) 22:18, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
OK, I just found Wikidata:WikiProject_Visual_arts/Item_structure#Use_of_creator_(P170)_in_uncertain_cases (because everything in Wikidata is arcane), which reccomends a qualifier of nature of statement (P5102) -> attribution (Q230768). Is this still the practice? 'Attributed to' often implies a level of uncertainty, much more so than an unqualified creator statement. -Animalparty (talk) 22:38, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
Well all things being relative, I think using P170->anonymous is a much more certain statement than P170->name->"qualified with attributed to". It is also much more helpful to provenance research if the former attributions are included as deprecated statements. This will make the paintings at least show up in searches based on old catalog and exhibiton records. If you want to use that qualifier, go ahead, but I doubt it adds much value to Wikidata or its sister projects! So attributed paintings will still end up in the "Category:Paintings by XXX" on Commons, for example. Jane023 (talk) 07:02, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Drawings from "Museu Nacional d'Art de Catalunya" (MNAC)

It seems that c:Category:Cabinet_of_Drawings_and_Prints_of_the_MNAC holds images for which we already have items [3], e.g. Q27574338. I added a few by searching for the catalogue code [4].

The collection includes a few items for bookplates. I wonder if some of the measures don't use cm instead of mm.

If this isn't the right WikiProject (paintings), please don't hesitate to move this comment elsewhere. @KRLS: for info. --- Jura 13:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I just double-checked the size(h/w) of ex-libris, they are plausible.
It's just that Q27576283 is a poster. --- Jura 13:46, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

The Khanenko Museum

Can anyone check c:Special:Contributions/176.115.96.11? It has modified a large collection of paintings supposedly in the Museum of Bogdan and Varvara Khanenko. I can not find these paintings in the museum website and I am not sure if done in good faith. --Vriullop (talk) 08:22, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

deletions of In use items

See Wikidata:Project_chat#Deletions_of_in_use_items_because_they_do_"not_meet_notability_policy". --Jarekt (talk) 03:10, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Modeling coats of arms on paintings

In Telegram, User:Jarekt and I have been tossing around ways to model coats of arms on paintings (or other works of art) and how to carry that info over to Commons Artwork templates. In Commons, COAs are treated as inscriptions (inscription|type=coat of arms), and I was interested in including this information in Artwork templates generated out of Wikidata.

However, there is a snag here:

Other options that have been suggested are:

Logically, a coat of arms on a painting is most like an inscription - it may have been added after the fact, it may not represent the actual sitter, etc. But I am beginning to think that "depicts" is the reasonable way to go.

What does everyone else think? - PKM (talk) 19:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I think depict would work fine, bit it should link to an item for specific COA item, like Q2108336 --Jarekt (talk) 20:47, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Saxon Academy of Arts

Hello,

in German Wikisource there are lists of Artworks public shown in one of the previous institutions of the Saxon Academy of Arts in the 19th century. Is this a notable Institution. [5] and can I add then items for the mentioned art works. I think this were something what is interesting. Then it is possible to get an overview how many items come from what for a place. --Hogü-456 (talk) 20:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

My German is not perfect, but if the only reference to these paintings is the single line in the text ('Die heilige Cecilia, nach Carlo Dolce') i think it's too little to work with. However, i could imagine the list might be interesting to use as a reference to existing Wikidata items, to indicate that they were part of this collection. Husky (talk) 08:46, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
Not sure about the Wasserfarbe ones, but all the Öl ones would be good for SoaP. Just use the 1801 attributions and we can always merge later if they turn up under later attributions in other Saxon collections (if you can't find them ~first with Bildindex). Jane023 (talk) 12:21, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Paris Musées

Hello, I'm ready to import 6000 paintings of Paris Musées. This is my test of 25 paintings https://editgroups.toolforge.org/b/OR/bd8b62cf4e/ As I'm not an expert of OpenRefine I will go slowly to upload the data. cc @multichill: . Pyb (talk) 14:42, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Pyb: great to hear and thanks for the ping. I looked at Portrait of Noémi Renan (Q97500158) / 214942. Quite rich metadata! Just some small points of improvement
Thanks, Multichill (talk) 16:04, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
@Pyb: Have you thought already about how you're going to do the upload of the files to Commons? I have a robot running every day to upload images of public domain paintings based on Commons compatible image available at URL (P4765). You could use it for these files too if you like. I would have to update the code a bit to handle zip files like https://www.parismuseescollections.paris.fr/en/zip/oeuvre/214942 , but that's not a lot of work. Let me know if you're interested (or not) so I can walk you through it. Multichill (talk) 17:20, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
@Multichill: Thank you for the advices, I will implement them. About the pictures, it would be great to use your bot. I've the direct links to the HD version, so I can easily add them, example Q97500142. Pyb (talk) 18:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
@Pyb: that's even better. The bot expects some qualifiers for Commons compatible image available at URL (P4765):
I updated Q97500142 like this (permalink). My bot can currently only handle one image suggestion per item. After the first images have been uploaded, you could add another suggestion and that gets uploaded too. Any idea how many of the paintings have more than one image? And more than two?
I can update the uploading code later to able to handle multiple suggestions, but for now please add one. Multichill (talk) 20:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
@Pyb: that seems to have worked! I created Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Collection/Musée Cognacq-Jay and updated Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Collection/Maison de Victor Hugo. This revision is an easy starting point for the other collections. Multichill (talk) 08:24, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

No update of Property statistics since 10 August

Hello there; I just saw that Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Property statistics has not been updated since the 10th of August 2020. Is the bot broken or has it been deprogrammed? Please take care of that to reflect the newest changes (I have created over 100 painting items in that period, and I am certainly not the only one to have been busy!). Thanks, --Edelseider (talk) 13:52, 22 September 2020 (UT

Fixed. Multichill (talk) 15:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing those bots Multichilll, and thanks for those items you created, @Edelseider:! I am appreciating them when I see them. Jane023 (talk) 06:55, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

formerly attributed to

How do we model unknown authors formerly attributed to someone else? I though in the past I used P1773 (P1773) with some qualifier, but the property was deleted. I am trying to add it to Christ on the Cross Between the Virgin and Saint John (Q100918649) which was formerly attributed to Albrecht Dürer. --Jarekt (talk) 01:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

You just add it to creator and then you deprecate the statement. I do this all the time. I generally don't have a reference for the old attribution if it comes from Commons, but if I do have a reference (such as old catalogs or whatever) then I use P972. Jane023 (talk) 11:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Commons Template:Artwork and Wikidata

WikiProject sum of all paintings has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead.
Discussion is currently underway on Commons (in this thread at Commons VP:Policy) on topics including to what extent the Commons c:Template:Artwork should be allowed to draw metadata entirely from Wikidata, or whether some must remain as wikitext on Commons (and if so, what? and how?). As this presumably may touch on many people's workflows, and many people in this project may have views or ideas about this, people may wish to have their say. Jheald (talk) 16:26, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Cleaning up the ontology of anonymous

See Wikidata:Requests for comment/Cleaning up the ontology of anonymous. Let's finally sort this out. Multichill (talk) 20:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

ListeriaBot is less and less reliable and should be replaced ASAP (resolved)

I have raised this subject in many places, and several times with the creator of ListeriaBot, but to no avail. There are two kinds of problems with LB that are getting worse and worse:

ListeriaBot is still useful for lists that are not too big, or too important. But for the really important lists (like the three I cited above), it sometimes fails miserably! @Multichill:, @Jane023: - could you do something? All the best, --Edelseider (talk) 14:46, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I just nominated this tool for best tool of the year, because I use it so much. I haven't noticed any problems with it (besides a known update lag due to Wikidata, not the tool itself). Generally I wait a day or two before trying to update one of these lists. By the way, both of the lists you mention have an update frequency set with |freq=30 so they won't update daily unless you click on them. Also, the tool is not part of Wikidata and it is built by a volunteer, so replacing it will be difficult. Can you give specific examples of paintings that are not counted in these lists? Thx. Jane023 (talk) 15:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi @Jane023:. Whenever I try to update the Top Creator lists manually, and unlike several other lists, it just won't work. After a few minutes, a message comes up: "Trying to update", and that's all. The result is this: no change since 11 August 2020, no change since 11 August 2020. Please go on and try to update manually, as I have done countless times! Good luck!
As for the Top Collections list, it should show changes for Musée des Beaux-Arts de Strasbourg (items Q99518195, Q99518190, Q99526022, and Q99667061, created between 21 and 27 September), but it does not. There is a problem. I insist there is. --Edelseider (talk) 15:47, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi again @Jane023: sorry to disturb you, but will you react? I provided you with all the answers and complementary information s you asked for. Thx, --Edelseider (talk) 06:11, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Large lists tend to not work. I think it's a fairly recent memory problem. Not sure if it happens because memory allocated to the bot was reduced or items just have grown.
Not displaying a country column might help as these large items would be loaded just for labels. Reducing the number of rows generally helps too. --- Jura 06:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Jura, that's right. Sorry @Edelseider: this is a perennial problem with Listeria and take some fiddling to fi it. The large lists do time out eventually. As Jura said, you need to reduce the query to fit inside the timeout limit. I am no Sparql expert, but I have learned to solve these generally by reducing the number of records returned or upping the stakes for appearing in the list. I amended it to only return 500 painters with over 100 painting items (was 800 / 40). It took a while, but it updated now. Jane023 (talk) 08:17, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Jura and Jane023. I did the same fiddling with Top creators by number of collections and it worked: [6]. Of course, the list is now shorter, which is a bad thing for a project supposed to be the sum of... --Edelseider (talk) 08:34, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Yes we are suffering the effects of our own success, but we can also always find ways to split these big lists into smaller ones. So e.g. we don't use the SoaP project as a label for tracking items, we could create subprojects to track a certain group of 1000 popular painters. We could also split the list by birth period, or work location, etc. If you want help deciding how to set up lists that you might be interested in, I can help or at least try to find help for you. Jane023 (talk) 10:40, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
I suspect the SPARQL is too slow and gives a time out. You could try to improve the SPRQL by using subqueries. --Hannolans (talk) 15:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
@Hannolans: I'm so sorry, but I wouldn't know how to do that because I actually don't even understand what you wrote (I only know the meaning of SPQR) - :). Can't ListeriaBot be replaced with another, more powerful bot? --Edelseider (talk) 15:43, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Hanno, yes the issue was time outs and it has been resolved. Edelseider, subqueries are just another way to split the query (such as by birth period, etc). Don't worry about Sparql - it's the query piece of the listeria template. The more you look at such queries, the easier you can copy them and tailor them for your needs. It's not rocket science. Jane023 (talk) 21:05, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

http://magnusmanske.de/wordpress/?p=650 Multichill (talk) 11:26, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Tracking for which painters we have all paintings

For a while I've had this question: For which painters do we have all paintings on Wikidata? Fortunately art historians like to make a catalogue raisonné (Q1050259) for painters. That's the best overviews we have for all works. Of course new works might surface later as new discoveries. So let's define having completed all paintings for a painter as: A trustworthy catalogue raisonné exists for the painter and Wikidata has an item for every entry in this catalog. For Vincent van Gogh I completed the list of paintings some time ago and more recently the list for Salvador Dalí and the list for the list for Piet Mondrian. As you can see it means we have an item for every painting, but that doesn't mean that the items itself are complete. This is just about if we have the item or not. Completeness of statements for a set of painting items for quality improvement is also an interesting topic.

To track the completed painters, I created Category:WikiProject sum of all paintings completed creators with catalog. For other painters for which I know a catalogue raisonné exists, I created Category:WikiProject sum of all paintings incomplete creators with catalog. I went through Category:WikiProject sum of all paintings catalogs and part of https://w.wiki/ogQ to add candidates. Several users (like Jane) already did a tremendous amount of work in this area. For each painter in that category either:

  1. Work has already been done: Verify that the list is complete. Update the list to clearly state against what catalog it has been checked and move the list to Category:WikiProject sum of all paintings completed creators with catalog
  2. Not complete yet: Work your way through the catalog

Who wants to help? What do you think of this approach? Multichill (talk) 17:49, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes interesting to use categories for this. In the case of Rembrandt and other much older painters, the completeness changes over time as works are added and dropped from any "definitive" list. So for Rembrandt, the list of self-portraits is complete (I think) and the other list produced at the end of the Rembrandt Research Project, but the RKD has taken their database and continues the work. In this case I think the artist should be in both categories, since completed and incompleted catalogs exist and both are "needed" or "in current use" as authority files for the artist. For this reason, maybe we should also have some way of sorting the completed and incomplete catalogs by percentage complete, but it would be nice if this was calculated on the fly based on some data like #codes matched to items and total #codes in the catalog. Jane023 (talk) 09:45, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Refining provenance events

I'm looking into how to improve provenance for paintings. It's currently documented as some useful properties. Looking at significant event (P793), the usage can maybe be improved, see The https://w.wiki/nWX . Most events involve two parties: The old owner/holder and the new owner/holder for which we have the generic item change of ownership (Q14903979). But quite a few other items are viewed from only one of the two parties:

And some more.

How to better model this? I think we can just keep change of ownership (Q14903979) and gift (Q707482). Maybe create a new item "acquisition through sale", "acquisition through bequest" and maybe "acquisition through sale at auction"? Thoughts? Multichill (talk) 17:16, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

OMG yes. I always forget how to do this but because normally I am working from owner catalogs I end up just adding owners and always forget to make the distinction for bequests or gifts. In fact I still can't remember how to do this. We should probably set up a subpage for WD:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Credit line where we makke an overview of the common ones. Jane023 (talk) 09:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Help needed adding missing inception and/or creator to upload images

A lot of paintings have images queued up Commons compatible image available at URL (P4765) to be uploaded to Commons, but some data is missing so the bot can't confirm the image is in the public domain. When the missing inception (P571) and/or date of death (P570) is added, the bot will upload the image (assuming it's actually in the public domain). The work lists:

Help appreciated. It's quite satisfying to see the images you updated get uploaded a couple days later. Multichill (talk) 14:21, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Thx. I will check those lists. I've almost finished the upload ot the paintings from museums of the city of Paris (Q3330843) (6810). Pyb (talk) 20:07, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Top creators by number of paintings

Help! I just don't manage to get it right. Where have all the names gone now? I had to make all these changes because of "error decoding response body: expected value at line 1 column 1" (see above), but after it has updated at last, the painters have become anonymous! It drives me crazy! --Edelseider (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Weird. I fixed it, because the problem was that the creator field you wanted a label for was not based on "namelink" but on "?item". I ãlso took away the table html lines since it's a table anyway. Jane023 (talk) 10:07, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
@Jane023: Thank you! I had tried my best, but it was not enough. It's good to be able to count on you! By the way: where do all the Q3348980 paintings come from? --Edelseider (talk) 10:31, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Ha! They are the result of a major push to get Indian paintings onto Wikidata, thanks to the Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Location/India!!! Most of the older paintings are unsigned, but it was nice to have the metadata whole oeuvre of one named painter uploaded. Jane023 (talk) 10:48, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
@Jane023: Shouldn't "we" launch that kind of edit-a-thon for Pablo Picasso now? I mean, he left about 5,000 paintings but there are only a little over 700 on WD. Nothing against Kalervo Palsa but old Pablo definitely was even more productive. --Edelseider (talk) 11:19, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
OMG yes! Same for all of the painters on this list! The real stumbling block moving us forward on these are 1) lack of volunteers comfortable editing Wikidata and 2) lack of available art catalogues. Especially for Picasso, the catalogs tend to be very expensive and few public libraries carry them. Fortunately there are many popular ones available on archive.org so it could be a good student project to have people contribute Wikipedia articles (that could then be cross-referenced to various catalogs). See this quick search. Jane023 (talk) 11:36, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
I think some painters on that list are well covered, Van Dyck and Rembrandt, for instance. I don't think that there are many more paintings in the world by these two. As for Van Gogh, I believe 877 covers it all! (if we start including drawings and prints, that becomes another matter). :) --Edelseider (talk) 12:50, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
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