Talk:Q184485

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Autodescription — performing arts (Q184485)

description: art form that is performed for an audience
Useful links:
Classification of the class performing arts (Q184485)  View with Reasonator View with SQID
For help about classification, see Wikidata:Classification.
Parent classes (classes of items which contain this one item)
Subclasses (classes which contain special kinds of items of this class)
⟨performing arts⟩ on wikidata tree visualisation (external tool)(depth=1)
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See also


ajout d'une langue[edit]

Je souhaiterais ajouter un lien vers la page en créole guyanais [Spektak vivan] [] et je ne sais pas comment faire... Je ne trouve pas où c'est expliqué. Anonyme973 (talk) 16:50, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Anonyme973: J'ai déplacé le lien de site (voir l'explication à Help:Merge/fr#Déplacer_les_liens_de_sites). - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 17:24, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Group of arts or subclass of art?[edit]

Revision. Performing arts are a group of arts. It can't be a subclass or else that would make it a single art... For the same reason, this is supposed to be on performance art (Q213156). Lectrician1 (talk) 12:29, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above message was posted to User talk:Neo-Jay at 12:29, 27 May 2022

@Lectrician1: Wikidata does not have different items for singular form "performing art" and plural form "performing arts" for now. Does Wikidata need to have both of them? If so, Q111748628, an item created by you as "performing art" and then merged by you into Q213156 (performance art, a quite different concept), needs to be unmerged from Q213156 and restored to this version. If not, this item (Q184485) is better set as referring to the more useful "performing art" (singular form) because many other items are subclasses of "performing art". Please have in mind that performance art is not the singular form of performing arts, but is a very specific type of performing art. And Q713200 refers to performing artist, not performance artist (Q10774753), and should be used on Q184485 (performing art(s)), not on Q213156 (performance art), as the value of P3095 (practiced by). --Neo-Jay (talk) 13:35, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Neo-Jay Yes, you are correct on everything! I was not aware that "performance art" was different than the singular of "performing arts" (performing art). Thank you for this in-depth explanation. I have unmerged the items. I will make all of the performing arts subclasses of performing arts (Q111748628) instead of performance art (Q213156) or performing arts (Q184485). Shouldn't performing arts (Q111748628) have the practiced by (P3095) statement though? Lectrician1 (talk) 15:37, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Lectrician1: Thank you for restoring Q111748628 (performing art). And I agree that Q111748628 should have P3095 (practiced by). Thank you. --Neo-Jay (talk) 17:10, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Lectrician1: Could you please explain to a person that is not a native-English speaker why both items "performing art" and "performing arts" are needed? I get the slight difference in connotation of plural and singular form but what different purposes should these items serve in Wikidata? Is there an article emphasizing the difference between performing art and performing arts? Is this only a language-thing (e.g. the plural form sounding odd if used as a super class)? If yes, why don't you just change the English label of this item? Please note that the German label of performing arts (Q184485) is in the singular (with the plural form as an alias) and that it makes perfectly sense in German to say performing arts (Q184485)practiced by (P3095)performing artist (Q713200) or opera (Q1344)subclass of (P279)performing arts (Q184485). As far as I can see there are also other languages using the singular form. In German the plural form and the singular form are used synonymously in most contexts (with the plural form emphasizing the plurality of performing art forms, the singular form their relatedness), as far as I'm aware of. Notified participants of WikiProject Performing arts (just to know their opinion, too). Thank you and kind regards, Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 11:46, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Valentina.Anitnelav 🤷In English "performing arts" is always used in the plural form and never the singular. Mostly people refer to the type of arts in which you perform, and together they form the group of "performing arts". The statement had has part(s) (P527) statements before I made the edits I did so I assumed it was referring to the plural group and therefore I just further defined it. If the German label and others are singular, than I would recommend moving them to the new performing arts (Q111748628) item as now some of the performing arts classes are subclasses of that class. However, I have a feeling that the sitelinked Wikipedia articles are also singular and this might come down to a difference in usage of the term across languages. That's a Wikipedia problem though and there's not anything we can do to solve it.
Honestly I get what you mean though and maybe we could make this the singular. But because it's always referred to it in the plural it feels weird. It makes sense to have a class be singular. idk. Lectrician1 (talk) 00:26, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No matter if you use the plural or the singular noun, it is still the same concept. Therefore, it should only have a single Wikidata class item. The Wikidata guidelines for labels say that "The label is the most common name that the item would be known by." As you pointed out, 'performing arts' is almost always used in the plural form. Consequently "performing arts" is the right label for this class item and "performing art" can be listed as an alias. Fjjulien (talk) 15:18, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with Fjjulien here. English isn't the only language in which the plural form is more common. Dutch is another one for example. It seems that we agree that 'performing art' and 'performing arts' are conceptually the same (and different from 'performance art', as stated before). In that case I would say that it is up to the language communities from those languages that have both a singular and a plural form which one to use as a label and which as an alias. Beireke1 (talk) 11:28, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Lectrician1 @Valentina.Anitnelav @Neo-Jay performing arts (Q184485) is widely used class item. It serves many important structural and date reuse needs in the performing arts domain. Removing the subclass statements is breaking important links that enable the retrieval of all performing arts genres. performing arts (Q184485) was modelled in the same way as visual arts (Q36649), which also has superclass/subclass relationships with specific genres of visual arts. Whether art (Q735) is the right superclass for performing arts and visual arts can be debated: Q735 isn't the most conceptually clean class item. However, the subclass relationships with individual performing arts genres were absolutely correct and should be restored: all person items with the field of work (P101)theatre (Q11635) are also working in the performing arts. I recommend merging performing arts (Q111748628) into performing arts (Q184485) so that all moved statements are reverted back in their item of origin. A given concept should only have one Wikidata class item. Fjjulien (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well then if we're going to merge, then I think the resulting item should be "performing art". It seems really weird to have a class name be plural and also have other statements like practiced by (P3095). A performing artist (Q713200) does not practice all of the performing arts. Merging will also mean that has part(s) (P527) currently on this item will have to go away. Lectrician1 (talk) 01:13, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Lectrician1 I agree that class labels are usually singular. However, as I mentioned above, the Wikidata guidelines for labels affirm that "The label is the most common name that the item would be known by." Have a look at the authority files for this concept: they are all plural. As to practiced by (P3095), I understand your point that a performing artist does not practice all of the performing arts. But bear in mind that performing artist (Q713200) is essentially a superclass for each individual performing arts occupation. If we remove this statement, then we would also have to remove the statement performing artist (Q713200)field of this occupation (P425)performing arts (Q184485), which may useful to run certain queries. This being said, I'm not willing to make a fuss over this particular statement. As long as, performing arts (Q111748628) is merged into this item (and, with it, all subclass relationships) then I am happy. Fjjulien (talk) 02:33, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Valentina.Anitnelav Thanks for notifying the performing arts community. Thank you. Fjjulien (talk) 15:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I also thought that Wikidata should have only one item for both "performing art" (singular) and "performing arts" (plural). But I hesitate after seeing Q735 (art) and Q2018526 (arts), the difference between which I don't quite understand. It seems to me that art and arts are just singular and plural forms of the same thing. --Neo-Jay (talk) 17:11, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Neo-Jay Based on the authority files associated to each item, arts (Q2018526) designates all art forms (including visual arts, literature, and the performing arts), whereas art (Q735) refers to the visual arts, also known as "fine arts", "beaux arts" or simply "art". We should organize a workshop at the next WikidataCon to clarify each of these two concepts and then edit the descriptions accordingly. Fjjulien (talk) 01:28, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As per the above distinction between arts (Q2018526) and art (Q735), I restated performing arts (Q184485)subclass of (P279)arts (Q2018526). I also cited the Getty Art and Architecture Thesaurus as the reference. Fjjulien (talk) 01:53, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I made a separate item for performing arts (Q115484226) again. The item being both plural and singular is just way too confusing. The English Wikipedia article describes the arts as a group so this item has been made the plural. There was also a sitelink that specified the singular version so I moved it to the new item. If the singular and plural concepts are the same word in another language like they are in German, then create a new item that is a subclass of performing arts (Q184485) and performing arts (Q115484226). Lectrician1 (talk) 16:41, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Lectrician1, I am a bit confused at the fact that you created this new item (performing arts (Q115484226)) after a quasi-identical item (performing arts (Q111748628) created by you earlier had been merged into performing arts (Q184485) as a result of the above discussion. It seems that you have done this without further discussion, just overriding the consensus that had been reached earlier on this question.
As you pointed out yourself in the above discussion, "performing arts" is in English most often perceived as a "plurale tantum", this is why dictionaries of English usually have an entry for "performing arts" and none for "performing art". It would thus seem reasonable to use "performing arts" as a label for the class (which in other languages might be renedred as a singular, depending on the usage of the term in that language).
There is no structural need for the creation of a separate "group" item in addition to the "class" item. Or at least, it has not been sufficiently demonstrated. In my view having to separate entries for the "class" and the "group" only creates confusion.
Given that you reverted to the status quo ante, overriding the conclusion that had been reached in the above discussion, I would suggest that you roll this change back by merging the newly created item performing arts (Q115484226) into performing arts (Q184485) and defining the latter as the "class" item as it was before your intervention. Thank you.
-- Beat Estermann (talk) 08:02, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Beat Estermann Done. It looks like you're right that even English considers no distinction between the definitions. Lectrician1 (talk) 18:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Lectrician1 Thank you! -- Beat Estermann (talk) 20:13, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Lectrician1 @Beat Estermann Thank you. Fjjulien (talk) 17:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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