Talk:Q23413

This does not work. The English castle translates to the Dutch Kasteel; but its language redirect is to Burcht(kasteel) (the term Burcht is never ever used for anything built after about 800 AD). The Dutch kasteel, however also translates to Chateau in English (to which it is linked). This article should ALSO be linked to Dutch kasteel, but someone with no knowledge about the fact that language do not always translate one-to-one has made it only possible to link a single page to each other. What would we do with the 1000 words in Inuit for snow if we cannot all link those to snow. This is not ok Arnoutf (talk) 18:21, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

The question is whether en:castle and en:Chateau are about 1 concept or not. If yes, they should be merged. If not, Dutch article should decide to which it fits better. If to both, then it is about joined concept and should go to third item. --Infovarius (talk) 09:02, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

A castle is not only a fortification but also the residence of a lord or noble

@Richard Nevell Please explain why you have reverted my edit. It's in the intro of WP:EN article: a castle is "the private fortified residence of a lord or noble" and " is distinct [...] from a fortress, which was not always a residence for royalty or nobility". So it should be the subclass of both fortification (Q57821) and manor house (Q879050). Ayack (talk) 16:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Ayack, apologies for the tardy reply. In part it's because it's not an especially easy answer. My starting point is what is the source to back up the statement?

The question of how castles are defined have been hotly debated in castle studies for decades. The classic castle is a multifunctional structure, militarised and residential, with lots of sites that fulfil those criteria and some which may better fit one than the other, or differ at various times.

Timothy Darvill, ed. (2002). The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Archaeology (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ACREF/9780199534043.001.0001. ISBN 978-0-19-172713-9. Wikidata Q55951744. defines a manor house as

"The main residence of the lord of the manor, typically comprising a substantial house, together with associated agricultural buildings and administrative offices. In England the manor house was often located near the main church serving the manor."

It also describes a castle as

"A general term referring to a major fortified residence or military position of the medieval period in northern Europe. Some are as large as fortified villages. The earliest examples are of the later 1st millennium ad and were modelled on the fortified homesteads of the Slavs. By the 10th century the principal residence in these places was set on a mound, and this established the style for the development of the motte and bailey castle in central and northern France in the 11th century."

It's worth noting that fortified manor house (Q32164125) are types of castle, as discussed in R. Allen Brown (2004), Allen Brown's English Castles (3rd ed.), Boydell & Brewer, p. 87, Wikidata Q56559916.

There are undoubtedly castles that functioned as manor houses, but my understanding of subclass of (P279) is that "all instances of these items are instances of those items". That is absolute, and I would like a source which explicitly states that castles are manor houses. For example, The Rings: a ringwork and bailey and a Civil War battery 400m south west of Corfe Castle (Q17661390) is consistently described as a castle in reliable sources, but is believed to have been built to press a siege of nearby Corfe Castle, so it is doubtful it had significant functions in the running of a manor. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps instead of manor house (Q879050) a more suitable value for subclass of (P279) would be residence (Q699405)? Richard Nevell (talk) 20:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)