Talk:Q2763

Modelling of holocaust victim

I was looking around how to model a Holocaust victim (Q5883980) and I noticed that Anne Frank (Q4583) has instance of (P31) set to Holocaust victim (Q5883980). That seems to be completely out of line with our normal modelling of humans. I propose we change this to significant event (P793) set to The Holocaust (Q2763) with qualifier subject has role (P2868) set to Holocaust victim (Q5883980) (example edit). This affects about 5200 items, see https://w.wiki/nXB . Multichill (talk) 19:33, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Better still, we could adopt Wikidata:Property proposal/context of death --Emu (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the current modeling in undesireable but I would prefer to adopt a new property like context of death and not use significant event (P793). ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 20:47, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I completely agree with removing it from instance of (P31). I may be the major culprit here as I seem to recall using that when I imported data from Yad Vachem, which brought me to Wikidata in the first place. What can I say–I was younger back then. Thinking around this issue may also have changed in the meantime, as I recall some discussions of "criminal" or "mass murderer" being used for instance of (P31), although I now fail to find them.

As to a replacement, I find significant event (P793) to be clunky at best. This may not be universal, but I find myself muttering "Ya Think???" anytime I see it used in that way. As in: to describe this singular atrocity that led to their rather cruel death as a "significant event" seems rather euphemistic. So I'd wait for "context of death" in that regard.

Not sure if we should wait for that property to become available or remove the instance of (P31)'s ASAP. I don't think it's worth replacing them with significant event (P793) and then to do it all over again soon after. Virtually all of them should have Memorial Book Bundesarchiv ID (P7571) or YVNG ID (P7624) set, so tracking them shouldn't be much of a problem. (Edit: there are 38 such cases) --Matthias Winkelmann (talk) 21:01, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

See Wikidata:Property proposal/context of death.--GZWDer (talk) 05:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

That proposal seems to be stale and wouldn't cover things like Holocaust survivor (Q12409870). How would you solve that? Multichill (talk) 10:31, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

We probably need a property 'victim of' ? --Hannolans (talk) 22:17, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, Holocaust survivor (Q12409870) is not 'victim of'. I like Multichill's model significant event (P793) = The Holocaust (Q2763) with qualifier subject has role (P2868) = Holocaust victim (Q5883980) / Holocaust survivor (Q12409870). Maybe, why not to skip significant event (P793) and set subject has role (P2868) directly to person? --Daniel Baránek (talk) 08:28, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

We could use subject has role (P2868)Holocaust victim (Q5883980) and subject has role (P2868)Holocaust survivor (Q12409870), it would by and large conform to the uses of subject has role (P2868) for human (Q5) at the moment (SPARQL). However, if you compare them to the uses of significant event (P793) (SPARQL), a more comprehensive discussion on the relationship between significant event (P793) and subject has role (P2868) should take place somewhere else.--Emu (talk) 10:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, I generally only use subject has role (P2868) and object has role (P3831) as qualifiers on statements, but in this case we can probably use it directly like Daniel suggested.

I did an example edit. Let's at least move the existing statements to clean up instance of (P31). Later on the model can be improved. We do have to take care to not loose the references when moving statements. I wonder if {{Autofix}} can be used for this. Multichill (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

@Multichill, Daniel Baránek, Emu: I find it problematic, that subject has role is overloaded for a use as a qualifier and as a statement. I would refrain from using it in this context. --CamelCaseNick (talk) 17:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Daniel Baránek: subject has role (P2868) is mostly used as an inverse for basionym (P566) and some school types. Other than then it was not used as a statement. I would not say this discussion is over. --CamelCaseNick (talk) 17:19, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I was thinking about this for similar reasons after being asked a question about "ontology of Holocaust victims". I appreciate the ideas here, but I am searching for some basic agreements in how to handle common cases. For example Anne Frank's death is well documented, but there are loads and loads of people who are documented on transports and that's as far as the documentation trail goes. Some Wikipedia's then claim death at the target death camp, while others say "probably", while it is just as probable that they died en route. That said, I still need some pointers how to handle significant events besides death, such as refugee status after having all possessions seized, and the relationship cause-effect for the people, but also the property ownership. I think maybe a Wikidata Holocaust project page could be useful (if it doesn't exist yet). Jane023 (talk) 12:23, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jane023: I think, it would be a good idea to have such WikiProject. The WikiProject WWII looks more like a WikiProject regarding the Holocaust that never really got off the ground. And this RFC and this as well (and the discussion above) suggest, that at least some coordination/discussion is desirable. --CamelCaseNick (talk) 20:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• I was the one adding in instance_of=Holocaust_victim and instance_of=Holocaust_survivor because there was no single way to search for them. I am fine with the suggested way of modelling: "significant event (P793) set to The Holocaust (Q2763) with qualifier subject has role (P2868) set to Holocaust victim (Q5883980)". Context_of_death is fine also, but will not handle Holocaust survivors. Context_of_death is still needed, I am still looking for a way to aggregate all the deaths_from_police_violence, and that seems to handle it. It seems that we can have both. --RAN (talk) 22:52, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Oh I see! Well of course "instance of human" should not be touched. But with a Wikidata WikiProject, we can use those two items on tracking qualifiers for the property on focus list of Wikimedia project (P5008). So if we have a Wikidata:WikiProject Holocaust (maybe as a subpage of Wikidata:WikiProject Human rights?) we could agree on how to model these cases for people, but also for their properties (houses, boats, cars, important furniture, artworks, lands, etc). I would be interested to work on the properties bit for paintings, especially for degenerate art (Q156460). Jane023 (talk) 10:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion for how to implement the Significant Event(P793) idea: Use a specific event "Perished in the Holocaust" (Q105070530) which is part of The Holocaust. For each individual Holocaust victim, enter different event date corresponding to the known death date (referenced, if possible with a Yad Vashem ID or an article confirming the information). The query would then be easy.

?item wdt:P793 wd:Q105070530 

To be consistent, same approach event approach could be used for an event "Survived the Holocaust", and an event "Fled Nazi Persecution of Jews". --LAP959 (talk) 08:02, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

@Jane023, LAP959, Richard Arthur Norton (1958-): Thanks to Emu, Wikidata:WikiProject Victims of National Socialism now does exist. --CamelCaseNick (talk) 22:15, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

@Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Ping with the correct name --Emu (talk) 09:41, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I created the item WikiProject Victims of National Socialism (Q106254470) for use with on focus list of Wikimedia project (P5008) Jane023 (talk) 09:40, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

wikidata queries for Holocaust victims and survivors

I would like to add to this conversation. There is a need for easy-to-use queries that find Holocaust victims and survivors and relate them to other entities and events. For that reason I favor whatever solution is the easiest to query afterwards. (Personally I used P31 because I saw it used for Anne Frank and it is incredibly simple to query. It would be good to be able to find easily 1) Holocaust victims 2) Holocaust survivors 3) Jewish refugees from Nazi persecution. All three are related to Nazi persecution of Jews which at present doesn't really have anything that groups them. When a solution is adopted could we please add the correct new notation without deleting the previous ones? At least for a while? I think we're all working towards the same aim and shouldn't undo each others' efforts. LAP959 (talk) 17:28, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

• It looks like P31 was removed before an alternative was added, how are we going to add the new values when we have no way to find who had the old value. --RAN (talk) 14:34, 24 March 2021 (UTC)