Wikidata:Property proposal/Segmental innervation

segmental innervation[edit]

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Natural science

Done: segmental innervation (P4882) (Talk and documentation)

Description	specific level(s) of spinal cord responsible for the function of this muscle or organ
Represents	segmental innervation (Q7446273)
Data type	Item
Template parameter	en:template:Infobox_muscle NerveRoot parameter
Domain	animal organ (Q24060765)
Allowed values	subclasses of spinal nerve (Q937076)
Example	biceps brachii (Q201363) → fifth cervical nerve (Q5065354) biceps brachii (Q201363) → sixth cervical nerve (Q5065355) biceps brachii (Q201363) → seventh cervical nerve (Q5065356)
Planned use	for muscle and organs description of their segment innervation
Robot and gadget jobs	yes

Motivation

Muscle description Usualy include innervation of such muscle. As currently in wikidata, there is such a property to describe nerve branch to a muscle "innervated by" (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P3189) Another important description is the segmental innervation. This is usually present in anatomical and neurological books and bear an important value in term of medical diagnostic. This could also relate to specific organs, or portions of skin. We could plan a list of possible values, but they might differ from species. For human they would include :

12 cranial nerves : CN1,CN2..CN12
8 cervical roots : C0,C1,C2..C7 ( yes it must start at 0 here)
12 thoracic roots : T1,T2...T12
5 lumbar roots : L1,L2,L3,L4,L5
5 sacral roots : S1,S2,S3,S4,S5
4 coccygean roots: Co1,Co2,Co3,Co4

We could also plan for a main segmental/ root . For example for biceps brachii in human some sources consider that the main root could be C5 Jppialasse (talk) 05:43, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notified participants of WikiProject Medicine

Notified participants of WikiProject Biology

Discussion

Support Strongly support this proposal. Segmental innervation is immensely useful in medicine and is present in every textbook. As stated, it helps with tracing back neurological problems to nerve roots set and allows the clinician to discover other findings such as defects in sensory modalities in the skin or other muscles. Adding a possibility to define the main root would also be a big plus. Tinss (talk) 05:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support David (talk) 07:38, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
While I generally support the proposal, we have to get clear about the items we mean. Currently, we have first cervical nerve (Q5065350) till eighth cervical nerve (Q5065357) for the cervical nerves.

Cervical root doesn't seem to be a concept that's either represented in Uberon or the FMA. I would prefer to have values for the item that do have FMA ID's and it makes sense to create the relevant items before adopting the proposal.

When it comes to one of the values being the main root, we can add that information via object has role (P3831) once we create this property.

Can you give your argument for why segmental innervation is the best way to name this property? Why do we prefer it over "nerve root"?

We still need a better description for people who don't know what the term means. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 12:18, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@David thank you for your answer and comments, here few hints : Jppialasse (talk) 19:01, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

regarding FMA and the concept of roots and spinal nerves, FMA indeed uses "spinal nerve", which will then gives "Peripheral segment of nth cervical spinal nerve" and then anterior and posterior roots of cervical nerves. Using Spinal nerve will be enough for the purpose, as what is mostly pertinent is the neurological level associated to the muscle.

for the main root, it would be perfect to use information via object has role (P3831) once we create this property

for "segmental innervation" this is neither my favorite choice, but I tried to relate to the only existing Q I could find. THe infobox parameter seems to me also a better choice : "Nerve Root"

Wikitext can unfortunately be a bit confusing. I wrote the above text and not David.

Using the concept for the spinal nerves means that the cervical nerves are numbered from C1 to C8 and not from C0 to C7 (both according to en.Wiki usage and according to FMA).

I can understand the desire to seek for existing items within Wikidata. It's however preferable to find a name that works well with how the same thing is named outside of Wikimedia. I found http://www.ontobee.org/ontology/FMA?iri=http://purl.obolibrary.org/obo/FMA_63492 which suggests that FMA speaks of segmental innervation. https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/segmental+innervation also uses this term. To me that suggests the term is okay, but it might also be valuable to check a few up-to-date text books and see what term they use. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 19:40, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@✉ : sorry indeed you are right, wrote this late, C1 to C8 is right, not C0 to C7. Whether we choose "segmental innervation" or "Nerve Root" the other name might be added to "also know as". They are not per se identical, as one might want to make the difference between anterior and posterior roots, but again the purpose here is more the neurological segment level Jppialasse (talk) 00:04, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As I wrote above I think it's good when the target items do have FMA IDs. Given that they are not subclasses of nerve roots, I moving to the opinion that the original label of the proposal "segmental innervation" is better than "nerve root". Are there other viable candidate for the name?

When the label is setteled we still need a good description that tells people who don't know what the term "segmental innervation" means what it's about. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 10:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

what about something inspired from there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_nerve#Clinical_significance : "The muscles that one particular spinal nerve or cranial nerve supplies are that nerve's myotome, and the dermatomes are the areas of sensory innervation on the skin for each spinal and cranial nerve. Lesions of one or more nerve roots result in typical patterns of neurologic defects (muscle weakness, abnormal sensation, changes in reflexes) that allow localization of the responsible lesion." Jppialasse (talk) 05:08, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notified participants of WikiProject Anatomy ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 12:18, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We need a source to cite which defines this concept. segmental innervation (Q7446273) currently lists one Wikipedia article talking about this concept, which is in English Wikipedia. That article is a two sentence stub which cites only two papers, both from 1992. We do not have supporting evidence that reliable sources use this term. @Tinss: Can you cite a textbook which defines this concept? Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:39, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm traveling at the moment, so my textbooks are somewhat out of reach. In the interest of full disclosure, @Jppialasse and I work together, so maybe he could provide you with a reference from a reputable textbook? Blumenfeld's Neuroanatomy through clinical cases would be a good candidate. Tinss (talk) 05:45, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it enough to describe the relationship between peripheral nerves (such as musculocutaneous nerve (Q1758126), which innervates biceps brachii (Q201363)) and spinal nerves (fifth cervical nerve (Q5065354), sixth cervical nerve (Q5065355)[, seventh cervical nerve (Q5065356)])? --Okkn (talk) 15:20, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@ChristianKl thank you for your answer and comments, in term of medical usage a nerve branch could have plenty of fibers from different roots, and innervate different muscles or organs. Most of them will receive indeed elements from the different roots, but not always. Another use I could see there would be to fill information against reflexes, where again direct link to spinal nerve segment is important. Another illustration of the concept of mixing of spinal nerve across could be seen at least with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachial_plexus. Have a look to radial nerve and then to all muscle innervated by and their associated spinal nerves Jppialasse (talk) 19:01, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Okkn: Backtracing like this gives you too many different nerves. The biceps gets innervated by the Musculocutaneus nerve which in turn gets innervated by the brachial plexus and further down the chain you have C5–Th1 (plus a bit C4 and Th2) which is more than just C5-C7. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 19:40, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not 100% sure whether to use animal organ (Q24060765) or muscle (Q7365) as domain. I picked animal organ (Q24060765) as I think the property can also be used for non-muscles. If there are any objections please bring them up. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 23:50, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, this could be also useful for organs, while the level related to spinal nerves would rather be regarding to autonomous ganglion . As an example you can check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Table_of_autonomic_innervation_of_organs.Jppialasse (talk) 05:03, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Jppialasse, Tinss, Okkn: Can one of you provide a good description for this property? That seems to be what's still missing for it to be created. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 10:32, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How about something like "specific level(s) of spinal cord responsible for the function of this muscle or organ"? --Okkn (talk) 15:02, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have added the description suggested by Okkn to the template and marked the proposal as ready. I will create the property in the coming days if no objection is raised. − Pintoch (talk) 19:21, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Pintoch: When the property is created we usually replace "|status = ready" with "|status = 'property-number'" to mark that the property has actually been created. I did it for this property proposal. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 08:04, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Okkn, ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2, Jppialasse, Tinss: The property has been created but it still has to be filled with data. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 08:09, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikidata:Property proposal/Segmental innervation

segmental innervation[edit]

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