Wikidata:Property proposal/academic institution
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academic institution[edit]
Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic
Not done
| Description | institution where the subject teaches or taught |
|---|---|
| Data type | Item |
| Domain | employer (Q3053337) |
| Allowed values | Q template |
| Example | Richard Dawkins (Q44461) → professor (Q121594) → University of Oxford (Q34433) |
| Planned use | Add it to scholars pages. |
| See also | employer (P108) |
- Motivation
The university or academic institution where a scholar taught is not just an "employer". Suzanne Beulemans 02:45, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Discussion
- so is the intent to make this a sub-property of employer (P108)? Or is the issue that some people teach at an institution without actually being employed there (?) I'm not sure what this really adds. ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:55, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- no, the intent is to make this an alternative to employer (P108) for scholars and researchers, as lecturing and conducting research at an academic institution isn't quite the same as just being "employed" there. employer (P108) is rendered as "worked for", which I think doesn't accurately describe advancing higher learning and engaging in academia. I would hope an "academic institution" item would yield something like, "taught at". Thank you for your time. Suzanne Beulemans 04:27, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- well, at least in the case of your example, employer (P108) has been used to indicate Oxford is where Richard Dawkins works, and his position properties indicate what kind of work he does. I don't think we would want distinct properties for every different kind of work - for example people in charitable organizations may consider their service to be of a quite different character to bankers etc, but it is still where they work (unless they are volunteers, I'm not sure we have a property to capture volunteer service). What about school teachers - are they at an "academic institution"? Yet they teach, and do something different from what the custodial or administrative staff do. If you could give perhaps a clearer example of why this might be necessary we could perhaps understand better? ArthurPSmith (talk) 16:10, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- Professors don't just "work" at academic institutions: upon being hired they must engage in "progress toward tenure" where said tenure is supposed to grant them academic freedom of publication of their research. Charitable organizations or banks don't grant tenure, that I know of. Likewise, upon retirement, charitable organizations or banks don't grant professors emeritus status, which makes them lifetime members of the institution. In that respect, a clearer example would be that professors are more like persons in the military who "serve" a country and are granted (or not) "honorable discharge" at the end of their service, which entitles them to many benefits. Thank you. Suzanne Beulemans 16:36, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- well, lots of jobs have probationary periods of one sort or another. But I think your military analogy is a good one. We do have military branch (P241) and military rank (P410) which I think would be good examples to follow - so I'm thinking what might actually be helpful here is to have a detailed "academic affiliation" property that designates the specific department or institute (rather than the general top-level institution) and an "academic rank" indicating what type of academic position they hold (this seems to be a little different from professorship (P803) which is associated with particular named chairs or professorships). So for Richard Dawkins it would be perhaps <<academic affiliation>> "New College, Oxford University", <<academic rank>> "emeritus professor"? ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:51, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- The fact that someone doesn't just work doesn't mean that they aren't employed. Given the current wording holding one guest lecture at a university would qualify a person to receive this property.
- This property seems ill-defined to me so I
Oppose. - The purpose of a property also isn't to define words that resonator uses to describe it. ChristianKl (talk) 21:39, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- Awesome, ArthurPSmith! The "academic affiliation" property designation perfectly defines what I had in mind. This would work well with an "academic rank" property indicating the academic position held. I don't think we have to worry about guest lecturers as they don't have an academic position, and they could fall within the "employer" property of that university, like librarians, etc. Thank you so much for your help. Suzanne Beulemans 17:08, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
- position held (P39) is already perfectly capable of indicating the academic position that a professor holds. ChristianKl (talk) 11:55, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Except it doesn't display properly in the Infoboxes. Either the Professor property shows, with the start and end date, who the person replaced, but you can't display the academic affiliation. Or the "Employer" property will display the University but not their title. Suzanne Beulemans 00:13, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- If it doesn't display in the infoboxes it's possible to modify the code of the infobox. I'm not sure why it can't be modified to show the data in this case.
- Whether someone has the title of being a professor is independent from the person being employed or affiliated to an university. There are cases where a person keeps their title even when they leave an university.
- Apart from that students also have an academic affiliation to their alma mater. ChristianKl (talk) 19:37, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- No, you can't display that "affiliation" for instance, with your name when attending a conference or when signing an article, like an emeritus can. Suzanne Beulemans 02:43, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose I've thought about this some more, and it seems to me everything here can be handled just fine by existing properties - we also have affiliation (P1416) that is useable in case the relationship is not one of employment. ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:33, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Support - we're lacking of this a long time. It's always so awkward, to use helping terms instead of correct ones. -- Marcus Cyron (talk) 12:35, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Comment I also like the proposal of ArthurPSmith, but this means we should start new proposals for properties "academic affiliation" and "academic rank". Jonathan Groß (talk) 14:56, 6 December 2016 (UTC)- Support "academic affiliation" and "academic rank" as one of academics :) -- Andrew Krizhanovsky (talk) 15:37, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose if it's not clear what the link is, it's probably better not to add a statement.
--- Jura 09:39, 14 January 2017 (UTC) - @Suzanne Beulemans, ArthurPSmith, Jonathan Groß, Jura1: Not done, because there's no consensus for property creation and the proposal is open for a long time. ChristianKl (talk) 19:12, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
