Wikidata:Property proposal/cover page

Qualifiers for locations within pdfs, djvu etc

preface page number

(added 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of a preface is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	The Conquest of Mexico Volume 1 (Q19083092) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:The Conquest of Mexico Volume 1.djvu → 45

table of contents page number

(added 15:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of the table of contents is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	Decameron di Giovanni Boccaccio corretto ed illustrato con note (Q43437721) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Boccaccio - Decameron di Giovanni Boccaccio corretto ed illustrato con note, 1827.djvu → 327 Il Decameron (Q43431543) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Boccaccio_-_Il_Decameron_I,_1877.djvu → 358

alphabetical index page number

(added 15:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of the alphabetical index is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	Hallowe'en Festivities (Q19021378) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Hallowe'en festivities (1903).djvu → 6

persons index page number

(added 15:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of the index of names of people is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	Decameron (Q43168563) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Boccaccio_-_Decameron_II.djvu → 393

place name index page number

(added 15:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of the index of names of geographic place names is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	Decameron (Q43168563) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Boccaccio_-_Decameron_II.djvu → 405

table of illustrations page number

(added 15:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of the table of illustrations is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	The Conquest of Mexico Volume 1 (Q19083092) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:The Conquest of Mexico Volume 1.djvu → 15

end notes page number

(added 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of end notes is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	The Conquest of Mexico Volume 1 (Q19083092) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:The Conquest of Mexico Volume 1.djvu → 463

glossary page number

(added 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of the glossary is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	Provincial Geographies of India (Q17018398) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Provincial_geographies_of_India_(Volume_4).djvu → 233 Kepler (Q17534320) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Kepler(1920).djvu → 67

bibliography page number

(added 6 December 2017 (UTC))

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of the glossary is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	Provincial Geographies of India (Q17018398) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Provincial_geographies_of_India_(Volume_4).djvu → 226

appendix page number

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Not done

Description	qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the first page of a appendix is located
Data type	Quantity
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	Provincial Geographies of India (Q17018398) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Provincial_geographies_of_India_(Volume_4).djvu → 228

title or cover page number

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Done: title page number (P4714) (Talk and documentation)

Description	created as title page number (P4714) qualifier to indicate the number of the page of a document in which the title page is located
Data type	Quantity
Template parameter	"Cover image", in Wikisource indexes
Domain	Commons documents (pdf, djvu etc), URLs to pdfs/djvu
Allowed values	numbers
Example	File:Relatório ao governador do estado de Alagoas (1929-1930).pdf → 4 Decameron di Giovanni Boccaccio corretto ed illustrato con note (Q43437721) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Boccaccio - Decameron di Giovanni Boccaccio corretto ed illustrato con note, 1827.djvu → 9 Il Decameron (Q43431543) document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) c:File:Boccaccio_-_Il_Decameron_I,_1877.djvu → 9

Motivation

This is useful for Wikisource and the upcoming integration of Wikibase into Commons. ~★ nmaia ^d 18:17, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

• Given some of the comments below, rephrased the initial proposal for a "cover page" property as a qualifier for pdf/djvu files and completed it with a few other qualifiers that can (if applicable), but don't have to be used. Datatype "number" should be quantity. These could be used independently of Commons.
  --- Jura 16:24, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

WikiProject Books has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead..

•  Support --Jarekt (talk) 19:37, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
•  Support --Mauricio V. Genta (talk) 20:37, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
•  Question Is this a qualifier for either Wikisource index page URL (P1957) or document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996)? It seems that as a property on its own it has to refer to some particular edition or scan of a book. Sam Wilson 00:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Neither, this would be used directly as a statement for a document file on Commons. Or for specific editions with Wikidata entries, like you mentioned. ~★ nmaia ^d 02:04, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
    • But individual files on Commons don't get individual WD items. For example, The Nether World (Q23308118) has three scanned files and therefore 3 cover pages. How would this property be used for that sort of item? (Sorry if I'm misunderstanding things.) Sam Wilson 07:53, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Correct, but Commons is getting a Wikidata backend very soon, which means files will be able to be described using our properties; it's not common but possible that this property can be used on Wikidata too, in a specific edition of a work, when the accompanying pdf is present. Regarding your second question, The Nether World (Q23308118) has three covers because it has three volumes: we can add this property to each volume on Commons, to make it more accurate. In my opinion, using image (P18) with page(s) (P304) is not a very satisfying solution, as it doesn't necessarily make it clear to reusers that it's the cover image being shown. ~★ nmaia ^d 11:14, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
•  Question Is this a statement for direct cover image from c:Category:Book covers category? Skim (talk) 07:03, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
  • No, I've reworded the label according to @Maxlath's suggestion to make it clearer (thanks!) ~★ nmaia ^d 11:14, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
•  Question Could the property label be more explicit? Something like "cover page number"? As such, I first thought this property was to link to the media file displaying the cover image. -- Maxlath (talk) 08:57, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Done, cheers! ~★ nmaia ^d 11:14, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

I also thought that would be a commons file. We also do need "cover page number" for PDF/DjVu files, but that should be a qualifier of document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) as even 2 different scans of the same book might be off by a page or two. This property does not make sense if not paired up with a specific file. --Jarekt (talk) 16:35, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

 Question Is it somewhere documented that the Wikibase backend for Commons will use the same properties as Wikidata? My current understanding was that it will have its own properties. --Pasleim (talk) 19:29, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Ah, in that case it seems this property would be most useful in Commons. However some people here in the discussion see value in it as a qualifier, so I'll leave it up to them to argue for it. ~★ nmaia ^d 16:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

 Question An other possibility for the range would be to have something like "my book cover.jpg" or "my book.djvu/2". But the second syntax is not supported yet by the "commons media" datatype (but it should be possible to add support of it). Tpt (talk) 20:24, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

•  Support if this a a qualifier for the document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) property. It would have not meaning in another context... --Hsarrazin (talk) 15:53, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
  •  Support in this case too. Skim (talk) 05:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
•  Comment why shouldn't this be stored directly at Commons?
  --- Jura 15:28, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• because Commons is not the main user, but wikisource(s) ? --Hsarrazin (talk) 16:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't think Commons Wikibase wont be accessible from Wikisource.
    --- Jura 16:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

•  Support ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2 (talk) 20:01, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
•  Oppose I've marked this as not ready and I don't believe it will work in wikidata until I actually see a concrete example of an item where this property could be added, or a statement where it could be used as a qualifier. The example in the current proposal is invalid - the "File" linked is not a wikidata item with a Q ID. ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
• I agree with ArthurPSmith that it would be nice to have a proper example. ChristianKl (talk) 15:28, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject Books has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead. @NMaia: Can you provide an example? ChristianKl (talk) 21:54, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Throughout the discussions I was convinced this was more suitable as a Commons property, but since others saw potential in it, I let the discussion happen on its own. ~★ nmaia ^d 21:05, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

•  Oppose in its current form, but if this were to be a qualifier for document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996) and were renamed "title page number" as that seems to be what it's actually representing. A "cover page" I think is the actual cover of a book, whereas this is (I think) about the title page (Q1339862). Sam Wilson 01:59, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
•  Support as title page number qualifier for document file on Wikimedia Commons (P996). It should be possible to get this information from statements here. Additional qualifiers for table of contents, place name index, etc. would be helpful.
  --- Jura 08:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

• @Jura1: If you support it in that form, can you provide an example of how you would want it to be used and edit the description to express the new scope? ChristianKl (✉) 14:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • sure, I added above accordingly, including some other qualifiers.
    --- Jura 15:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

• Ok, this is now a completely revised proposal for 8(?) new properties; I believe (A) it should start over from scratch to avoid the confusion of the above discussion about a quite different proposal, and (B) all of these seem much more appropriate for discussion as Commons properties rather than as Wikidata properties - on Commons there would be no need to limit these to being just qualifiers. So I'd recommend we table this proposal until the Commons structured data implementation is close, and then introduce these as proposed properties there specifically for Commons. I don't see that they add much useful to have them within Wikidata itself. ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
•  Comment I'm not really aware of what Commons is doing, intends to do or might eventually have done. It's not really relevant to these proposals. The problem is that Commons and other archives host pdfs and similar files and Wikidata links to them, but these are generally not structured. Some files are transcribed at Wikisource, but not all of them. As we can't do statements on statements, we need specific qualifiers. As the initial proposal was for a title page and the qualifier approach has support, I'm marking the first one as ready.
  --- Jura 20:29, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
•  Done the first one as title page number (P4714): @NMaia, Jarekt, Mauricio V. Genta, Hsarrazin, Skim, ديفيد عادل وهبة خليل 2: please make good use of it.
  --- Jura 11:36, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
•  Comment Looks like this got accidentally archived.
  --- Jura 06:26, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
•  Comment fixed again.
  --- Jura 13:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

•  Comment @NMaia: I guess I should reiterate my earlier comment - P4714 has been around for almost a year, and has 8 uses. Commons integration is coming up soon - the other suggested new properties make sense to me as useful properties for direct statements on commons files, rather than attaching them as qualifiers to wikidata item statements. This proposal is over a year old now, and is unlikely to have any further useful discussion. I strongly recommend retiring this proposal (with "not done" on the proposals that were not done) and starting fresh. Perhaps it could be boiled down to a single property for Commons files - "significant page" say, with qualifier to indicate what's on that page. Or separate properties if that really seems necessary. ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:48, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done Per ArthurPSmith proposal.--Micru (talk) 21:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)