Wikidata:Property proposal/wikidata project

Wikidata project

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic

   Done: no label (P4570) (Talk and documentation)

Description	Wikidata project page that's related to this entity; the Wikiproject is an additional place where discussions can be held and that can be pinged when there are open questions about the usage of this entity
Represents	Category:WikiProjects (Q5492333)
Data type	URL
Template parameter	should be used in property documentation template
Domain	item or property
Allowed values	https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:[^#]+ (Wikidata pages in the Wikidata namespace but no talk pages or page sections)
Example	diplomatic mission (Q213283) → https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_International_relations magazine (Q41298) → https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Periodicals train depot (P834) → https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Railways
Source	linked WikiProjects
Planned use	To identify all Wikidata WikiProjects and link them to the associated concepts.
See also	properties for this type (P1963) Wikidata:Property proposal/usage discussed on page

Motivation

A large number of Wikidata projects have been created to identify the key properties of a concept like https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/Software/Properties, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Periodicals. But they have not been linked to the corresponding items on Wikidata. With this property, new contributors who come to Wikidata can find the associated projects to get started and if needed, improve the associated project pages. John Samuel 22:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

•  Support Making the our Wikiprojects more visible is important for getting more people involved in them. ChristianKl (talk) 15:07, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
•  Support David (talk) 17:19, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
•  Support - though I'm wondering if URL is the right datatype - there are wikiprojects that go across wikimedia projects, right? Are there items for them? Or maybe that's not really sensible? ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:40, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Currently we do not have items for them. URL is still the best option even for wikidataprojects that go across multiple wikimedia projects since multiple concepts can point to same wikidata projects. John Samuel 20:36, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

I think having Wikidata wikiprojects as scope is better. Given that there a formatter URL suggested, external-id would also be a good datatype. ChristianKl (talk) 21:56, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Thinking a bit about it, I don't think anymore that external-id is a good idea. ChristianKl (talk) 01:25, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

•  Comment Personally, I'd extend this to any WikiMedia WikiProject and link items.
  --- Jura 14:25, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

We have an item Wikimedia project page (Q14204246) and many Wikimedia project pages are instances of it (around 913247 items). But this property deals only with Wikidata projects meant to identify properties of different classes, so that new comers can to any particular concept like software, periodicals (magazines), events etc. and find the properties required to describe the instances of such classes. John Samuel 15:39, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

I would prefer to keep it for Wikidata projects to make it clear where people can look for help about a given property. ChristianKl (talk) 01:30, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

WikiProjects don't systematically do that. The sample given above is somewhat unusual as it lists the properties on the main page of the project. If it should be "help about a given propery", why not call it "help about property"?
--- Jura 06:51, 5 November 2017 (UTC)t

I went through a list of projects from different domains given in Wikidata:WikiProjects. Their key purpose is to help contributors (esp. newcomers) identify the relevant properties of their domain. We have property properties for this type (P1963) that can be used to identify the properties of class, but what we need is the ability to redirect newcomers to property discussions on relevant wikidata projects. I was wondering whether we/I should rename this property to 'help' but the term 'Wikiprojects' is well known across Wikimedia. John Samuel 12:57, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

•  Comment I'd also do the same as Jura above. Mahir256 (talk) 22:15, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
• WikiProject Informatics has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead. John Samuel 18:20, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
•  Oppose If we wish to "identify and describe the key properties of a concept", then an unstructured meta page is not the way to do it. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:24, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
  • We already have a property properties for this type (P1963) to specify the properties of an item. Added properties for this type (P1963) in 'see also'. The aim of the proposed property is to redirect the users to the discussion page on finding properties of an item (even though it contains unstructured content). John Samuel 18:12, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
    • That would be better done with a template on the talk page, like on Wikipedia. I was quoting the proposed property description, BTW. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:12, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
      • That's an interesting proposal as well. I was checking the two templates Template:Item documentation and Template:Property documentation, especially the former. It will be also great to include the information on Wikidata project discussion page as part of the template. But I am not able to comment on which approach would be better. John Samuel 21:43, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
•  Comment The description should be changed from "Wikidata project page that identifies and describes the key properties of a concept" to "Wikidata project page that documents and discusses usage of this entity". I would also broaden the scope to Help pages, so the description would be "Wikidata help or project page that documents and discusses usage of this entity". -- JakobVoss (talk) 08:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
•  Done @JakobVoss:. I also updated the property name to 'Wikidata project or help page'. John Samuel 08:56, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Maybe "describes" works better than "discuss". Otherwise one might think of talk pages.
    --- Jura 09:33, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
    • How to incorporate the idea of discussion? Because, in some pages, we do have discussion before the final proposition. How about "documents, describes and discusses"? John Samuel 09:39, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
      • There is a proposal for this at Wikidata:Property proposal/usage discussed on page.
        --- Jura 09:48, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
        • Thanks Jura. Pinging @ChristianKl:, do we merge our two proposed properties? What do you think? Because both of them serve the same purpose (now, since it's no longer focusing on WikiProjects alone). John Samuel 10:07, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
          • I don't we need to mention that there is talk page associated with it.
            --- Jura 12:34, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
•  Support -- JakobVoss (talk) 12:12, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

• I would refer to continue this property proposal to focus on Wikiprojects. Wikiprojects can be pinged and actually do discuss a project and not only describe it. They are the place where a user who has issues with a given page should ask for help.

The face that Wikiproject serve that role can be explained in the description of the property.

If we want users to interact with both our help pages and our Wikiprojects I see no reason to muddle the concepts together. ChristianKl (✉) 12:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I also support limiting this property to WikiProjects! -- JakobVoss (talk) 14:16, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I changed the label/description. ChristianKl (✉) 13:58, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Why shouldn't one not use the property talk page any more?
--- Jura 19:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't intent to make a statement that is that strong. The problem with asking for help on the property talk page is that the amount of people that follows a given property is generally very low. Having discussions via Wikiprojects can be a way to engage more people into the discussion. Having the discussion on the talk page and pinging the Wikiproject also works (and this property helps with knowing which project to ping). I'll think a bit about coming up with a better formulation.

The point of the exercise is that currently, it's hard for new people to switch to be involved in debates because most of the items people edit have empty talk pages. A lot of people do a few edits but never interact with other users.

At WikidataCon one of the researchers asked about finding ways how experienced users can give new users, who don't know what to do, tasks to do. I don't think it's a good idea to paternalistically assign tasks to new users but making Wikiprojects more visible to new users can give them ideas about how to engage with our community.

There was also a sentiment that new users often don't know where to ask for help. We have >6000 active monthly users and we don't want all of them to ask for help on the Project Chat. The project chat doesn't scale well. It's much better when they direct their questions to Wikiprojects. ChristianKl (✉) 23:53, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

@Jura1: I changed the text. What do you think about the new version? If you have a suggestion of how it should read, I'm also happy to hear your version. ChristianKl (✉) 16:02, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it works out. Let's see how it goes. Personally I think project talk pages tend to be even less active.
--- Jura 11:49, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

•  Support following comment by ChristianKl.
  --- Jura 11:49, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• @Jura1, Jsamwrites, JakobVoss, JakobVoss, ArthurPSmith:  Done Created as P4570 (P4570). ChristianKl (✉) 13:18, 24 November 2017 (UTC)