Wikidata:Property proposal/sexe ou genre du protagoniste

sex or gender of the protagonist

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Creative work

   Not done

Description	regarding the work in question, For human: male, female, non-binary, intersex, transgender female, transgender male, agender. For animal: male organism, female organism. Groups of same gender use subclass of (P279)
Data type	Item
Domain	literary studies (Q109607955), cinematography (Q590870), video game (Q7889)
Allowed values	male (Q6581097), female (Q6581072), intersex (Q1097630), trans woman (Q1052281), trans man (Q2449503), non-binary (Q48270), male organism (Q44148), female organism (Q43445)
Example 1	Tomb Raider (Q317620) --> female (Q6581072)
Example 2	Knightmare (Q1962011) --> male (Q6581097)
Example 3	one night, hot springs (Q112250650) --> trans woman (Q1052281)
Expected completeness	always incomplete (Q21873886)
Wikidata project	WikiProject Narration (Q60007664), WikiProject Literature (Q8485515), WikiProject Film (Q8485793), WikiProject Video games (Q8485882)

Motivation

In order to have an objective view of the gender of the protagonists in works of art (mainly literature, cinema, video games), I think it's necessary to create this property, which will be useful for executing any SPARQL query that refers to it.

I know that this notion is often used in the has characteristic (P1552) property, but I feel that this is too general for the purpose I have in mind.

Furthermore, we could only keep the sex or gender (P21) property for which we could then apply to an element, the protagonist of the work, but:

1) not all protagonists necessarily have a name (I'm thinking of video games) and it doesn't seem obvious to me to create an element which would have the name "protagonist of XXXX";

2) if we want to carry out a query on works, it seems tricky to me to check whether a property characters (P674) of a work and finally to check the gender of these characters.

Here is the purpose of this property proposal. YotaMoteuchi (talk) 14:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• WikiProject Books has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead., WikiProject Movies has more than 50 participants and couldn't be pinged. Please post on the WikiProject's talk page instead.,
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  Notified participants of WikiProject Video games. YotaMoteuchi (talk) 17:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
•  Oppose This leads to redundant data if we have an item on the protagonist, which is a big no-no in relational databases. Sure enough, this requires linking to the protagonist's item, queries will be harder, and we might miss out on the gender if the protagonist's name is unknown but that's OK. Dexxor (talk) 08:20, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
•  Oppose Redundant. We already have sex or gender (P21) and sexual orientation (P91). /ℇsquilo 05:44, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
•  Oppose this should be expressed at the character item. A proper name is not a prerequisite for a wikidata item about a character. There already exist some items about unnamed characters. - Valentina.Anitnelav (talk) 10:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
•  Oppose I understand the intent to a certain extent − we have the immediate 'issue' of items like video game with LGBT character (Q85422949) ; and the perspective of creating items for each protagonist of each game/work is daunting. But I don’t think such a simple property would be sophisticated enough to model the complexity of the topic. What if there are several protagonists? What if the player can choose his character (eg. Assassin's Creed Odyssey (Q54617566))? What if the gender can be chosen by the player (Commander Shepard (Q3683919))? What about character creation (Q5073735) (CRPGs)? For games, do we mean protagonist or player character (Q1062345)? And next, what if I’m rather interested in the antagonist?
  I think this can only be expressed finely enough by having items for the character (with as many statements as needed) and to use characters (P674) with the relevant object has role (P3831) and narrative role (P5800) qualifiers. As for queries, there are indeed not trivial, but already well documented at Wikidata:WikiProject_Video_games/Queries#Characters Jean-Fred (talk) 19:46, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the query, @Jean-Frédéric:. :) (Regarding the point where the gender can be chosen by the player, we should have been added many values on this property.) YotaMoteuchi (talk) 05:35, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok, but then we might have Mass Effect (Q275960)sex or gender of the protagonistmale,female, but then also Assassin's Creed Odyssey (Q54617566)sex or gender of the protagonistmale,female − even though they are very different situations (the former has one character, the latter has two characters). Jean-Fred (talk) 08:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I understand your point of view. According to me, it's not a real issue if we consider (and ONLY if we consider) that's a video game (or anything else) can have a female, male, trans,... protagonist (just for statistics).

Nevertheless, if we consider the case of multiple protagonists, then we should create some other property as "sex or gender of the second protagonist" (and so on if we have 3, 4,... protagonists).

By the way, as this property will not be done (this time?), it's just a discussion about hypothesis. :) YotaMoteuchi (talk) 15:23, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

•  Oppose This can already be queried, there's no point to create this property that will only result in redundant data. An item should ideally be created for the protagonist whether they have a name or not. Lewis Hulbert (talk) 22:04, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

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• @YotaMoteuchi, Dexxor, Esquilo, Valentina.Anitnelav, Jean-Frédéric, Lewis Hulbert:  Not done given lack of consensus. Regards Kirilloparma (talk) 01:25, 4 September 2023 (UTC)