Documentation

sports discipline competed in
discipline an athlete competed in within a sport

Represents

Data type

Domain

human (Q5), fictional human (Q15632617) or group of humans (Q16334295)

Example

Haile Gebrselassie (Q171500) → marathon (Q40244)
5000 metres (Q240500)
10,000 metres (Q163892)
half marathon (Q215677)
Galina Zybina (Q3773) → shot put (Q180935)
javelin throw (Q178108)
discus throw (Q182570)

Tracking: usage

Category:Pages using Wikidata property P2416 (Q23909144)

Discussion[edit]

difference with sport (P641) ?[edit]

1. Can someone explain me the difference with sport (P641), which is also applied on persons.
2. if P641 is present on an item of a person, should P641 be removed when P2416 is added (because it is more specific for a person item, and there the prefered property)?.
Michiel1972 (talk) 11:11, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

P641 should not be used for persons and P2416 should replace it in items about persons. --Stryn (talk) 13:23, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure that I agree?!

In my case, the sport of Diving, a person might start to practice at the age 6 and for the first time compete internationally when they are 14 in some event like 3m springboard. At age 16 the start compteting in 10m platform and from the age of 19 stop competeting 3m all together. At age 24 they also start coaching, stop competing when they are 29, but then entering an international sports committee on the subject. Stop coaching at age 52 and the committee work at age 60.

I would expect p641 to outline the complete timeline from age 6 to age 60, while more specific statement like p2416 applies to the different events they compete in from at 14-19 and 16-29. Their stint as coach or member of committees will then be encoded in separate statements.

Does it make sense? --VicVal (talk) 13:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some comments:

As Stryn said, sport (P641) should not be used for persons (although technically okay), but I’d replace P641 by occupation (P106) statements and not by P2416. P106 is about notable occupations (paid and unpaid) for all kinds of persons, not just in the field of sports (i.e. it has the most general scope). Structural items for occupations can be created if necessary and subclass proper general structural items; the imaginary diving person in question here would then get P106 statements with competitive diver (Q16004431), “diving coach”, and “diving official” (the latter two need to be created).
sports discipline competed in (P2416) is more useful as a qualifier on participation statements. For the most important sports event like the Olympics we have items down to the event level and thus don’t need P2416, but this is not the case for all noteable events. Therefore, if there are no event-level items we can use P2416 like that:

⟨ Gleb Galperin (Q1343790)  

 ⟩ participant in (P1344) ⟨ diving at the 2007 World Aquatics Championships (Q3653190)  

 ⟩
sports discipline competed in (P2416) ⟨ “10 metre platform” ⟩

You would need to define a structural item for the “10 metre platform” discipline (and probably others) of course.

Apart from that, I don’t know whether P2416 is useful as a standalone statement for sports persons. We should really avoid using competing properties to say effectively the same (for example usage of P641, P101, P106, and P2416 just to say that someone did something related to athletics, as in Haile Gebrselassie (Q171500)). However, types of sports are very different, so maybe it could be useful for some of them.

—MisterSynergy (talk) 14:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There was some inconclusive debate about the use of P641 .. I think even MisterSynergy agreed that it can initially be applied.
--- Jura 14:26, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For reference: recent debate in WD:PC archive. —MisterSynergy (talk) 14:31, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For the second bullet in MisterSynergys post I find this to be wrong. I believe that we should have a consistent way of encoding (in this case) dive meets, dive events and dive entries, not merely replicate the articles that is available on Wikipedia projects. So I would definiteively prefer to create the 10 Event items the describes the 2007 Aquatics Championships. In that way I'm also able to add specifics like the date of each competition, etc. --VicVal (talk) 14:52, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The second point was meant to illustrate a proper use of P2416 on an example item that does not yet have individual event items. I agree with you that the World Champs could and should have individual event items (for example the 2015 edition of diving World Champs has), but there are many less important competitions where this is not the case. There are even competitions for which we do not create instance items for each edition, but instead just a “class like” overview item for the recurring event. P2416 would be useful for those as well. —MisterSynergy (talk) 21:59, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

removed "or event"[edit]

Because participant in (P1344) was used at Haile Gebrselassie (Q171500). d1g (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

sports competition (Q13406554) type constraint?[edit]

@Mormegil: which problem do you want to solve with this new type constraint? It does not fit at all to the definition of this property, since sports competitions cannot compete in disciplines by themselves… —MisterSynergy (talk) 13:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MisterSynergy: How should we distinguish e.g. athletics at the 1936 Summer Olympics – men's discus throw (Q3628462) from athletics at the 1936 Summer Olympics – men's 800 metres (Q3628457)? Either we need to set sport (P641) to the specific discipline (then, what is the point of the distinction between P641 and P2416?), or we need to keep P641 set to the common athletics (Q542) and distinguish the disciplines using P2416. Any other idea? --Mormegil (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You’re looking for the competition class (P2094) property:

⟨ athletics at the 1936 Summer Olympics – men's discus throw (Q3628462)  

 ⟩ competition class (P2094) ⟨ men's discus throw (Q55216991)  

 ⟩

Not sure how the situation in the field of athletics is, but I guess you need to set up proper value items once (I just created the example item men's discus throw (Q55216991), feel free to do so for all other relevant athletics events). User:Habst would also need them soon for their current bot project… —MisterSynergy (talk) 14:25, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What I did for this is just use competition class (P2094) with two values, i.e. male (Q6581097) and discus throw (Q182570). I'm not sure if all the duplication would be a good idea, because the per-event articles on Wikipedia generally deal with both genders at once. --Habst (talk) 15:53, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do they? My impression is that this is in most situations just not the case. See en:Template:AthleticsAt2016SummerOlympics for example: it lists all athletics events, per discipline and gender. It will definitely be similar for other editions of the Olympics, but I don’t know how the situation regarding other meetings is.
In case of a situation where men's and women's events are described in one article, one either had to add both gender-specific competition class items, or find a way to split the content at Wikidata. There is a similar situation in tennis btw. —MisterSynergy (talk) 16:01, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I wasn't being clear at all there. What I meant is we have articles (and Wikidata items) for things like w:Discus throw but not w:Men's discus throw. I agree that at meets the articles are separated per gender and event. Currently I just have a manual mapping from string like "400 M" to 400 metres (Q334734). If someone were to create the ~50 gender-specific event items and list them somewhere, I would have no problem converting my program to use them but I'm not sure if it would be better to accomplish the same thing using the items we already have. --Habst (talk) 16:53, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility with queries is much better if we use the proposed model, which is the main reason why I propose it here. I could offer to create those items, but it will probably take two weeks (busy in real life…). If you start with your approach now, it should not be that difficult to automatically update it to the other model later (so don’t wait for me). —MisterSynergy (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I'll probably create the rest of them later today. I'll just try to create male and female versions of the 36 events I have in the bot right now (so 72 new items total). Of course there are further questions about edge cases like classifying the events at the w:2016 World Masters Athletics Championships, but for now I'll leave those unanswered and not deal with it. --Habst (talk) 19:09, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah that’s fine, special cases can be dealt with later on a case-by-case basis. —MisterSynergy (talk) 22:34, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Was going to have the bot create all those event items today but after filling out the original list to match the IAAF ones, it looks like it'll actually be just over 100 new items so I'm going to hold off until the bot is approved and has the bot flag before making them. --Habst (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So I had the bot create all the gendered items today and it should use them going forward (and retroactively I changed all the Bolt races). The full list is in the code starting at line 214 right now if anyone is interested. --Habst (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I now removed the constraint type again, as it still does not fit to the intention of this property ("discipline an athlete competed in within a sport"). Also mind that it is bad practice to expand the scope of a property without prior discussion, as it happened in this case.
I will try to tidy as many of the "new" constraint violations as possible soon. Proper alternatives of this property for sports competition (Q13406554) type items are competition class (P2094) or sport (P641). —MisterSynergy (talk) 08:10, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sports clubs[edit]

I added sports club (Q847017) as an allowed item since it's used on DRC Hannover (Q831529) to declare that it's a rugby club, and this usage seems reasonable to me. Maybe it doesn't match the intended use of this property? There's now another constraint suggestion on the item that it could have country for sport (P1532), which it probably shouldn't. I suppose field of work (P101) could be used on clubs instead. Ghouston (talk) 03:33, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Or perhaps we should create items for every sport like association football club (Q476028) or chess club (Q1896682). I think some sports have such an item and some not, according to whether Wikipedia articles exist. But making clubs instances of sports club (Q847017) with a property to indicate the sport, seems better to me. Ghouston (talk) 03:40, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are basically two models out there, which are:

instance of (P31): sports club (Q847017) + sport (P641) (not: sports discipline competed in (P2416)); this fits better for larger clubs with several departements
or instance of (P31) with a sports-specific value such as association football club (Q476028) or chess club (Q1896682)

So please prefer sport (P641) over sports discipline competed in (P2416) for sports clubs. Both properties are relatively similar, as concepts of "(type of) sport" and "sports discipline" are difficult to distinguish sometimes, but P641 is less specific and we would not need to change any constraints. --MisterSynergy (talk) 09:26, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I reverted the change. I didn't notice that there were two properties for the sport, and arrived here by following the link on DRC Hannover (Q831529) (which I'll change to sport (P641). Actually DRC Hannover (Q831529) had both versions and I didn't notice). Ghouston (talk) 09:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Property talk:P2416

Contents

Documentation

Discussion[edit]

difference with sport (P641) ?[edit]

removed "or event"[edit]

sports competition (Q13406554) type constraint?[edit]

Sports clubs[edit]

Navigation menu

Property talk:P2416

Documentation

Discussion[edit]

difference with sport (P641) ?[edit]

removed "or event"[edit]

sports competition (Q13406554) type constraint?[edit]

Sports clubs[edit]

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