User:Marjan Tomki SI/Todo subpage

Subpages links

• Links subage - there is a typo in subpage name; moving that is "planned" to be a test and training in moving procedure
• Template for column formatting (en:WP...) seems unavailable here.

Template:Columnend ToDo Subpage

Understanding Interwiki data use

• To find out how data gets to WD (expected/planned - and other - routes)
• To find out how data gets used (infoboxes or other ways too), and how things work (need to understand for troubleshooting)

Report jan 2024

Not much advance about above (partial info and experience, no source for general overview and logic found yet). Anyway, some success to both store data and see it usable and used in articles in several languages

To do nowː

• I saw use of coordinates and maps in sl WP, used from WD and not mentioned in Infobox. Intend to try to add more where applicable and where I can to WD and see how it works
• Something like Input method got activated here and prevented me to continue to write this, until I succeeded to disable that. It can be re-enabled, but where that option was is now Preview on the top of this window. Probably started initially when I clicked advanced to format the heading above.

Learning WD user interface

Some things were unexpected.

Data on that is elsewhere (my sh: WP user talkpage; I worked on a page there when I encountered unexpected behaviour), where are also links what I already perused (WD tutorial etc); intend to link that here, or bring that data here and link from that place here to moved data.

Understanding data structure and constraints

Example from Haldraper's talkpage

Copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Haldraper#Thank_you

Thank you, Haldraper, for your kind words. I was interested to read your comment that there were more Englishmen and Irishmen on the American side of the War of Independence than on that of a German monarch with a mercenary army. In reply, I would say that it is therefore somewhat ironic that German Americans are the largest ethnic group in the U.S. One of them (Gen. Eisenhower) even led the Allied forces in defeating Nazi Germany. Eagle4000 (talk) 02:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I think your (Hal's) points illustrate something I've mentioned in a number of talk pages. Nationality isn't a straightforward concept. What actually counts?

1. place of birth: is it
   1. the country the place was in when they were born there? then
      1. the composer Franck was Dutch; I've only ever seen him described as either Belgian or French
      2. this was actually the criterion used in English law until fairly recently: you were one of us if you were born in the dominions of the monarch; this meant that Sir w:William Herschel, who was born in Hanover after 1714, didn't need to be naturalized before being knighted
   2. the country it's in now: then
      1. Kant was Russian
      2. Bartok was Roumanian
      3. Archimedes was Italian
      4. Herodotus was Turkish (& maybe Homer too)
      5. Augustine of Hippo was Algerian
2. male line ancestry: then
   1. George III was Italian
   2. James VI & I was Breton
3. overall blood: then
   1. as you say, George III was almost entirely German (Queen Victoria even more so)
   2. the present Queen is rather less than 1/2 English, but less German than that
4. upbringing, which you mention; I have to say this is the way I tend to think of it myself; culturally, people tend to belong where they were brought up; I tend to regard people as British if they sound British, which is usually iff they were brought up here
5. legal nationality: some people have more than 1, either simultaneously or successively
   1. Franck was successively Dutch, Belgian & French
   2. Stravinsky was successively Russian, French & American

All in all, it illustrates my more general point that infoboxes are often rubbish. Peter jackson (talk) 10:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

My point of view

If WP was knowledge base, it should be temporal knowledge base. So, everything that has temporal dimension should be conceputally modeled to allow that data to be consistently enetered, mantained and used.

Technical problem

Links in what I quoted didn't work (it's not the same context) - and I need to let at least Peter Jackson know what I work on, to see what he thinks of it, so at lesast those links (if not those he included and worked before I copied here) to his talk page should be modified to work. Edit: I added w: to WP links in text I copied.

Finding out how it should work (on good examples)

Data on that up to now is partly on sh: partly on en: user subpages, and is to be consolidated here (and/or cross-linked). Examples are Wales for geo item, and Einstein, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and Jim Al-Khalili for persons (because their data about education and work seem pretty complete) at the momemnt. Is to be worked on towards those where problems were found, so that they are resolved and procedures/help and tutorial material upgraded so same type of problems gets less likely.

"Student of" example

student of (P1066)

seem to be student in most general way, so person refferenced can be a master (technician, artist etc.), mentor, anyone with notable influence, not formal adviser only (and Einstein's Max Talmud/Talmey is missing - intend to check sources address and add)  ; technically interesting: can't make it a link; probably different namespace; can see substructure, most significant probably constraints.

subject item of this property (P1629)

part of supporting substructure - is not intuitive enough how this is defined. It could be property allowed, or property that defines the item (item of that tipe can't exist without that property, or particular value of that property...). To sleep over (possibly several times), both about current meaning and about possible better description.

Constranits example

• Help:Property constraints portal/Item - clear, but took to much time to come here. To see what I might have missed before, or what to add to tutorial if I didn't wander unnecessarily because of bad vision.
• Help:Property constraints portal/Target required claim - it seems it is understandable to author, not necessarily generally. Might have context needed described elsewhere. Searching.
• Help:Property constraints portal - that seems to be what I was searching for for months.
  • Need to see, why I didn't find it up to now (is it mentioned on page where constraint is enforced, or in tutorial etc.
  • This article is structured with the list of current constraints first, why were they introduced (intentions) and how are used (user interface) to the bottom. Not very handy for me at the moment, and would be so even more if I were still in contents editing mode.
  • My experience with trying to enter/update data was:
    • I couldn't enter the data that sources required to be entered (non-English family names, not-yet-entered and/of no-more-existing educational institutions etc.)
    • I didn't see what properties were expected/usual, so I needed to see how on good existing examples (see above; that worked).

To Do Here

I'm gonna try to add education data about persons I have sources on and see how far I can come, and document problems. And I am expecting problems, now (so I am gonna stay in troubleshooting mode).

Troubleshooting why things don't work as expected

Problems areas

1. When you are working focused on contents, and something unexpected happens, you often don't know what exactly you did before that outcome
2. Reproducibilitiy - even when you're already aware of possible problem - is not guaranteed. I call systematical approach to solve that "going troubleshooting" (mode), because one has to move ones focus from contents to procedure and it's context (e.g. with IT how s connection, what's with hw, any other program misbehaving etc.). In that mode you try to - as best you can - document everything that might matter. That doesn't mean all (that is both impractical and impossible).
3. Problem with user interface (user and user interface don't understand each other). When I did that before (user support or troubleshootin) I usually learned new problem, new user interface, new tutorial/help material and user-with-the-problem's abilities, knowledge and work practices. And - of course, and always, and systematically - tried to initially assume I had no idea what the problem was.
4. Problem with contents and WD structure (concepts, shema, constraints, definitions what's what...) (and how's that documented and available and understandable to (hopefully) smart (and immenslely curious) novice like me)
5. Problems with data in infoboxes of different projects (data not shown when expected etc.).

Have allready encountered all of the above; according to rule of previous experience (that one should expect one missed something) I expect this is still incomplete

Several months later

20210923

A lot of time was productively used autdoors, but some reliable sources for some things have been acquired, so I could try to add data. User interface dind't allow me to enter some of them - see Talk:Q12787336 for details.

As I stated above several months ago, when particular datum (==piece of data) can't get published, there is usually additional information, if one puts mouse pointer over question mark besides choices Publish and Remove. Problem is that sometimes datum can beh entered regardles that info, and sometimes can't, and data shown about the problem seem the same (general info what could be the problem, not what actually is).

Now I am guessing that Bogo Grafenauer (Q4937682), historian and university teacher, maybe lacks statement about being human, and so is not alowed to have statement declaring being father. The problem WikiData structure should help solve is, that same data is to be used for several notable persons of one large family (with more then ten notable persons with already existing articles in sl WP, and several in several other languages). I now have reliable sources for some data about whole family (Ivan Grafenauer had 13 children, of whom 12 lived to adulthood and 11 to over 60, and about 4 of them already exist sl WP articles, and about 2 also in other languages. Notable (with existing sl WP articles) are also his father and his uncle. There are also several notable (some with sl WP articles, some with WP articles too) between further relatives (grandchildren and great grandchildren, e.g. Irena Grafenauer, Darja Mihelič, Brina Vogelnik Saje etc.). That might make whole family notable (not geneticaly, but about what kind of family environment alowed so many people of note in one family).

This is not the only case. I have such data (and reliable published sources) of members from at least 3 families from Slovenia. From my work speciality from before retirement, such data should be stored in normalized form, and used from that. I suppose WD is intended to do that.

After some time looking around

at "What links here" of one of pages in question, I found list of constraint violations for that page. Working on it...

At first I thought all of "Violations count: 4639" were related to entity Bogo Grafenauer (Q4937682), but seem to be general overview of constraint violations in WD or part of it. Shall need not only study, but also at least one sleep-over.

Edits above - I really needed sleepover while originali writing the text above; there was a lot of typos and some pieces not well understandable. Mostly corrected. 20220105.

Some things to study - could have been addressing some same or similar problems

• Wikimania 2021:Submissions:
  • Let's atomize Wikidata & Wikibase: probably related to normalization in WM in general and WD in particular
  • How to innovate in free knowledge? – New pathways to promote new projects and attract innovators for free knowledge from across the world. supporting innovation: possibly related to OR policy in WP, which suppresses most unverifiable stuff, but also innovation

Should see what was addressed, and how, and by whom (if I can contribute something that was missed).

Interwiki links help could be better?

What I saw up to now, seemed writer oriented, not (novice) user oriented. For examlle, search found me (in sl language version) W:sl:Pomoč:InterWikimedia povezave - which addressed interproject links well, but not interlanguage links; a novice would need info on addressing both (and other) inter namespace adressing problems. From what I found up to now I don't see (yet) how to intuitively make link like wikimania page above WM (Wikimedia) internal. Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 07:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I updated some examples of good articles to study above to interwiki links, and w: prefix for wikipedia worked as expected (klick on it opens en wikipedia article).

User interface for link insertion for eg. "Einstein" here in WD correctly returns text "This page does not exist on Wikidata". For "w:Einstein", it errouneously returns "article exists in Wikidata", while when inserted and klicked, it correctly opens article on (en) Wikipedia.

Link insertion user interface should be troubleshooted (troubleshot? ;-) so that message in such a case would be "article exists on (en) Wikipedia". I suppose troubleshooting and possible fix (redesign?) should address link insertion user interface(s) in all wiki namespaces, so that all transwiki links from all wiki namespaces work correctly (and, if possible, consistently). Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)