Wikidata talk:WikiProject New Zealand

How to

I sometimes read something that's well-argued or well-informed, look up the author on Wikidata and they aren't there. What I do find is that the author has heaps of publications and is listed under author name string (P2093). Here's today's example (ok, the person was already on Wikidata but just under his initial; I merged the entries once I spotted that). So I go ahead, set up a Wikidata entry for the person. Then, I go into the publications, add the person as an author (P50) and delete the relevant P2093 entry. Often, the P2093 has a reference. What I would really like to do is "move" the P2093 to P50 so that the reference can be retained. Is there a way to do that? Schwede66 (talk) 20:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

@Schwede66: See how the author disambiguator tool goes. This workflow might also help. --99of9 (talk) 05:24, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread the question. The other answer is way better. --99of9 (talk) 02:51, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Schwede66:The other tool that helps (if you don't want to go through Author Disambiguator, which is awesome but can take a bit more effort and isn't worth it for a single publication) is the DuplicateReferences gadget (found under Preferences/Gadgets). If you turn it on, you can copy a reference from one statement in an item to another statement. So you copy the reference across to the P50 before you delete the P2093.DrThneed (talk) 06:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, that sounds perfect. Thank you. Schwede66 (talk) 07:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@DrThneed: Right. Have picked my mate Dave (the 2013 winner) as a test case for the DuplicateReferences gadget. Gosh, he's got a ton of publications on Wikidata, with very few references. Anyway, the gadget seems to be a tad glitchy. Sometimes, it throws up an error. You refresh the page, copy the reference again and then it works. And the very same second I process the last entry, Facebook sends me a notification that it's Dave's birthday today. How uncanny is that? Schwede66 (talk) 19:25, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Ah, that threw me when I first started using it, I should have mentioned - after you've added the new statement you need to refresh the page before it will add a reference to it. Bit of a pain. But for the prolific Dr Kelly you would be as well to use the author disambiguator tool to do it all for you. If you haven't used it before I recommend watching this recent talk done by Arthur Smith at the LD4 Wikidata group (librarians) showing how it is used, it really helps with understanding what it is doing behind the scenes, how it clusters the publications and how to deal with common names like Kelly. His slides are here.DrThneed (talk) 20:34, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Public agencies

Thierry Caro Ambrosia10 Einebillion Canley DrThneed Giantflightlessbirds Schwede66 Quilt Phase David Nind Oronsay Jonathanischoice Mathieu Kappler Paora El Dubs Stitchbird2 Marshelec Duncnbiscuit

Notified participants of WikiProject New Zealand

Just a note that we are working on modeling all public agencies of New Zealand over at Wikidata:WikiProject Govdirectory/New Zealand. If you are interested in this topic, please join, we are well on our way to get it complete. Ainali (talk) 15:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Biota of NZ property?

Hi all, I just noticed this site https://biotanz.landcareresearch.co.nz/ with pages like this: https://biotanz.landcareresearch.co.nz/scientific-names/bfc4c809-b68d-496c-bd95-28079346617a . Would it be worth making a property for this ID? --99of9 (talk) 07:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Consistency in recording ethnicity

Thierry Caro Ambrosia10 Einebillion Canley DrThneed Giantflightlessbirds Schwede66 Quilt Phase David Nind Oronsay Jonathanischoice Mathieu Kappler Paora El Dubs Stitchbird2 Marshelec Duncnbiscuit

Notified participants of WikiProject New Zealand

@Stuartyeates started a discussion on my talk page about modelling ethnicity data for Māori people (see discussion here). We don't currently have a consistent way of doing this, and it might be desirable to do so. Noting for the record that ethnicity statements have a 'high bar' and should be based on good reliable sources and preferably be from the subject themselves. In looking for examples of the models below I noted that many of our high profile Māori people on Wikipedia have no record of iwi or ethnicity on their Wikidata items, so it would be great to improve that. However a first step would be for us as a community to agree on how we think this data should be modelled.

With @Prosperosity's help we have identified five (so far) models that are in use. The properties involved so far are ethnic group (P172) and tribe (P12011):

1. ethnic group (P172)=Māori, plus ethnic group (P172)=iwi/hapū that person affiliates with (often multiple statements). All main statements. (e.g. Tipene O'Regan (Q7808817), Jacqueline Fraser (Q18719413) with a ranking applied, no reason given)
2. ethnic group (P172)=Māori, plus tribe (P12011)=iwi/hapū (both main statements) (e.g. Ngahuia Murphy (Q113960275))
3. ethnic group (P172)=iwi/hapū (no inclusion of Māori) (e.g. Nathan J. Kenny (Q56432812))
4. tribe (P12011)=iwi/hapū (no inclusion of Māori) (e.g. Arohia E. Durie (Q125975056))
5. ethnic group (P172)=Māori, plus qualifier(s) ethnic group (P172)=iwi/hapū (e.g. Tearepa Kahi (Q26863839))

Firstly, have you seen or used or want to suggest any other modelling? And secondly, do people have opinions about a preferred model? For what its worth, I've always modelled Pakeha (when a subject says there are, which is relatively rarely) with ethnic group (P172)=Pakeha. DrThneed (talk) 02:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I think I've previously used ethnic group Māori and then with the qualifier affiliation P1416 to include all the iwi or hapū the person lists as belonging to. Ambrosia10 (talk) 05:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Have you read the discussion on Tribe(P12011)? They use iwi as one of the use cases for why there should be a property for Tribe that is distinct from Ethnic Group.

I've found the following semantic definitions for the Properties

An "ethnic group” is a social group or category of the population that, in a larger society, is set apart and bound together by common ties of race, language, nationality, or culture -Encyclopedia Britanica

A “tribe” is a social group composed chiefly of numerous families, clans, or generations having a shared ancestry and language. Merriam-Webster dictionary

They are related but is Tribe a subset of "Ethnic Group" or are they overlapping sets?

Also, how does the NZ government define the terms, particularly StatsNZ? They would be an authoritive source. Duncnbiscuit (talk) 08:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

https://natlib.govt.nz/librarians/iwi-hapu-names/alphabetical-list exists but should not be used. I understand NLNZ have applied for funding to update it, but it's been refused for political reasons. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty much committed to implementing this by hand for a bunch of people (probably manually), as soon as we agree on how to do it. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

If we can define clear definitions of iwi and hapu, would it be worth creating the terms as child properties with both 'Ethnic Group' and Tribe as parents? It might save a lot of pain with recursive SPARQL queries? Duncnbiscuit (talk) 10:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

We don't even have a clear definition of en:Māori people and en:Moriori let alone the iwi and hapu. There are good IRL reasons why these are contested. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I've never seen a respectable source consider Iwi/Hapū as analogous to ethnic groups, so I'm not sure why we would ever consider them as such. Iwi are pretty clearly tribes.

I think Hapū could get a bit more complicated. We don't have a "subtribe" property, as that is what they really are. But I suppose listing them as a tribe still makes sense as nothing says you can't be part of a tribe that in itself is part of a tribe.

Consider me in favour of number 2. It does need to be recognised though that the Hapū is part of (P361) the Iwi. ElDubs (talk) 23:47, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

In my view option 2 is the most pragmatic approach. ethnic group (Q41710) gives the definition 'socially defined category of people who identify with each other', which to me suggests ethnic group (P172) is best suited to a broad population group and modern classification by the state. tribe (P12011) on the other hand refers to tribe (Q133311), 'social group existing before the development of, or outside of, states'. It links to The Encyclopedia Britanica's Tribe, which is a worthwhile read. As for using tribe (P12011) for iwi (Q1676081) and hapū (Q675182), while I'm not a fan of recursive queries, if iwi can be considered a larger Tribe and hapu considered smaller tribes. That should fit with situations where the smaller hapu may develop relationships with more than one iwi.

Whilst it's bound to be an imperfect comparison, you could draw parallels with ethnic group (P172)=Highlander (Q11326181), tribe (P12011)= Clan Donald (Q595667), which has many minor Macdonald clans based on separate locations with their own tribe (P12011) chiefs, e.g.Clan Macdonald of Clanranald (Q1094972), Clan Macdonald of Sleat (Q5125571) , and Clan MacNeil (Q2975310). Do iwi and hapu have BTW? Duncnbiscuit (talk) 10:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Since option two seems to be trending here, I had a crack on an example at Tawhanga Nopera (Q57242363). Tainui (Q1480041) not being allowed seems odd to me... Stuartyeates (talk) 09:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

waka (Q94466783) has the parent class confederation (Q170156), which has a definition of confederation limited to groups of nation states. It doesn't cover the meaning needed to include a group of tribes. So does the definition of confederation (Q170156) need expanding or would nomadic confederacy (Q26883974) be a better parent class for waka (Q94466783)? It has part(s) (P527) tribe (P12011) but its parent class political territorial entity (Q1048835), which may not be appropriate? Duncnbiscuit (talk) 10:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

https://www.britannica.com/topic/confederation-politics explains confederation quite well and https://www.britannica.com/topic/Iroquois-Confederacy describes tribes coming together for common purpose, whilst maintaining each tribe's sovereignty. Duncnbiscuit (talk) 11:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Found another example in the wild in my group of interest: essa may ranapiri (Q112167382).

Link shortening is down right now, but User:Stuartyeates/scratch pretty convincingly paints a picture of putting everything in P172. Stuartyeates (talk) 10:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Progress

I've visited all the items of en:Category:New_Zealand_Māori_academics (reverse alphabetical order) and (a) added a ethnic group Property:P172 with source where missing; (b) tried to add ORCID and VIAF where missing. I also did en:Category:Samoan_academics, which was much harder due to the lack of clarity between Samoan born-people and ethnic Samoans. Feedback welcome. I'll probably add the tribes in a while. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:52, 25 June 2024 (UTC)