Wikidata talk:WikiProject Sailing

Feel free to add yourself to this list. User:Danrok Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) Rama Christian Ferrer Nortix08 Andrawaag Cavernia De728631 Vladimir Alexiev , 7 January 2021 simon.letort ShipIndex vicarage Pmt pfps

Notified participants of WikiProject Ships

Project tasks?

Do you have ideas on what the project should be focussing on? We could update Wikidata:WikiProject_Sailing/Todo with 3 sections: todo, in progress, done Simon.letort (talk) 12:04, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Beam

Any reasons for using width (P2049) with a beam (Q2376482) qualifier instead of the beam (P2261) property in the data models? PtiBzh (talk) 16:01, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

To be honest, I am not sure. Both work (as beam (P2261) or as width (P2049)/beam (Q2376482)) and I think we should make the infobox work with both options. Given that LWL or LOA as properties were declined Wikidata:WikiProject_Ships/Properties_missing#length_at_waterline_(LWL) and suggestion is to store LWL, LOA as qualifiers of the property length (P2043); I thought that having beam as a property was not needed, it could be a qualifier for width. This allow for other widths to be defined (width at stern for instance). Similarly for draft, I suggest not to use draft (P2262) but height (P2048)/draft (Q244777). This allow to add more vertical measurements, for instance height (P2048)/mast (Q331744). Simon.letort (talk) 03:54, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I like the idea of using width (P2049)), length (P2043) and height (P2048) with specific qualifiers but beam (P2261) and draft (P2262) are already heavily used in WikiProject Ships. I'm not sure it is a good idea to multiply the recommended way of specifying the same thing. PtiBzh

Hello PtiBzh . I updated the Sailboat Infobox so that it now takes either values: draft (P2262) OR height (P2048)/draft (Q244777), beam (P2261) OR width (P2049)/beam (Q2376482). See diff on template and test cases. Simon.letort (talk) 14:28, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Properties for sailboat dimensions?

I think there is a need to clarify the properties used to describe sailboat dimensions. See discussion about beam with @PtiBzh: (width (P2049) with beam (Q2376482) qualifier or beam (P2261)), or discussion about height with @Teester: (height (P2048) with draft (Q244777) and air draft (Q2446632)) or discussion about draft with @Jura1: (P642 considered harmful).

If I try to summarize, here are the main possibilities to describe sailboat dimensions:

• 1 - Should we only use a property like draft (P2262)? And consequently, should we create a property for each boat dimension (like length overall (Q2358152))?
• 2 - Should we only use a more generic property like height (P2048) with a qualifier (like draft (Q244777))? And consequently, should we delete the too specific properties like draft (P2262), after having migrated the data to the #1 model? And as we should avoid of (P642), which qualifier should we use?
• 3 - Or should we use both properties? Issue being the risk of creating a messy data model.

@esquilo: made a proposal here that I quote below:

IMHO, width (P2049), height (P2048) and length (P2043) should always refer to overall dimensions unless otherwise specified (with applies to part (P518) for example). draft (P2262) is a more specialized property and when used makes less specific properties redundant.

So, for sailboats I think these properties should be used for dimensions:

• width (P2049) for beam (Q2376482). beam (P2261) should not be used, preferably it should be deleted.
• length (P2043) for length overall (Q2358152).
• draft (P2262) for draft (Q244777).
• length (P2043) with qualifier applies to part (P518): waterline length (Q1817392) for length at the waterline
• height (P2048) with qualifier applies to part (P518): air draft (Q2446632) for the height above the waterline.
• width (P2049) with qualifier applies to part (P518): something appropriate for width at the waterline.
• length (P2043) with qualifier applies to part (P518): hull (Q6750281) for length excluding bowsprit and such things.

That is my suggestions. In any case redundancy should be avoided, so draft (P2262) and height (P2048) can not be used to describe the same thing.
— User:Esquilo 18:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a very good proposal. What do others think? Simon.letort (talk) 02:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

This seems like a very good proposal (and I totally agree with the general idea « redundancy should be avoided », Wikidata has already way too much redundancy). Not sure if the first 2 properties should not also have qualifier to be explicitely clear ; the assumption it's the overall dimension is quite obvious for some people (the ones knowing boats in particular) but not so much for most people. Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 07:01, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• Interesting. Thanks for looking into this in more detail. As mentioned on the bot request, the same information shouldn't be added with "draft" and "height" properties. For that, it probably goes in the right direction. One should bear in mind that, in general, I think one should avoid trying to model things into multi-valued properties and rely too much on restrictive qualifiers. Sample: if height (P2048) is used, it shouldn't be qualified in a way that it means "half-height": users who proceed without checking all qualifiers will end up with completely distorted information and possibly completely lost when the outcome varies based on several qualifiers.
  Seems Wikidata:WikiProject_Ships/Properties_missing has some drafts, but didn't proceed. Maybe some of these should be lauchned.
  BTW I don't think applies to part (P518) is correctly used. Isn't it expected to refer to parts of the subject, not the predicate? --- Jura 16:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• The sailboat infobox on wikiepdia is structured around the definition and structure of the World Sailing - Equipment Rules of Sailing. The clearly breaks the boat down in hull, hull appendages, rig and sails. It then has global measurements under the term boat. With over 1600 pages using this infobox I think sailing should follow it own dimensions not borrow ship terminology. Yachty4000 01:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Has part and has quality

At sailboat (Q1075310), I tried to sort some elements between has part(s) (P527) and has characteristic (P1552), see Q1075310#P527 and Q1075310#P1552. This may appear trivial or theoretic, but tends to get important when we try not use "of" as qualifier for height/length/mass/beam/etc, but some other. Some of the parts and qualities are currently used as value for "of" qualifiers.

• To use "applies to part", I think a value should be in P527.
• If it's a quality (in P1552), object has role (P3831) or criterion used (P1013).

Sample: where goes "length over all"? If it's has characteristic (P1552), then object has role (P3831) would probably be a good qualifier. If it's has part(s) (P527), one could go with applies to part (P518). --- Jura 21:25, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

BTW criterion used (P1013) would probably work in both cases. Ideally we should have to check just one qualifier per property to determine what it is. --- Jura 12:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)