Wikidata:Property proposal/Wikispecies template for this work

Wikispecies template for this work

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects

   Not done

Description	The reference template that matches to this work or part of it.
Represents	Wikimedia template (Q11266439) (actually a new "Wikimedia reference template" subclass would be best, I guess)
Data type	Item
Domain	I think publication (Q732577)?
Allowed values	items with instance of Wikimedia template (Q11266439)/the "Wikimedia reference template" new instance
Example 1	Auctarium ad Synopsim Methodicam Stirpium Horti Reg. Taurinensis (Q5711347) → new item for species:Template:Allioni, 1774
Example 2	A revision of the Solanum elaeagnifolium clade (Elaeagnifolium clade; subgenus Leptostemonum, Solanaceae). (Q42258482) → new item for species:Template:Knapp et al., 2017
Example 3	Plantas Hartwegianas imprimis Mexicanas (Q6077912) → item for species:Template:Bentham, 1839 (Q65033570)
Planned use	Generating relevant list of works on wikispecies

Motivation

This property (possibly with a converse used on template items) would connect works and existing reference templates that are used to represent them. Currently some items (e.g. examples 2 above) make them directly connected, but it seems like a poor representation of what is going on. It also cannot be used whenever both a template and a page (i.e. Auctarium ad Synopsim Methodicam Stirpium Horti Reg. Taurinensis (Q5711347)), or more than one template (i.e. species:Species Plantarum) exist. Since template has topic (P1423) is seemingly meant for navigational templates, I'm proposing a new property.

This property would make is possible to create templates capable of generating lists of relevant source templates on Wikispecies author and work pages (see e.g. species:Tiina E. Särkinen or species:Bijdragen tot de flora van Nederlandsch Indië), although that would be easier to do if the majority of article imported to Wikidata didn't dump authors in author name string (P2093) properties... It could also easily be expanded to other project by changing the name if a need is ever felt (e.g. connecting Template:Cite NewGrove2001 (Q14407303) and Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians (Q1422837)). Circeus (talk) 03:58, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

Vladimir Alexiev Jonathan Groß Andy Mabbett Jneubert Sic19 Wikidelo ArthurPSmith PKM Ettorerizza Fuzheado Daniel Mietchen Iwan.Aucamp Epìdosis Sotho Tal Ker Bargioni Carlobia Pablo Busatto Matlin Msuicat Uomovariabile Silva Selva 1-Byte Alessandra.Moi CamelCaseNick Songceci moz AhavaCohen Kolja21 RShigapov Jason.nlw MasterRus21thCentury Newt713 Pierre Tribhou Powerek38 Ahatd JordanTimothyJames Silviafanti Back ache AfricanLibrarian M.roszkowski Rhagfyr 沈澄心 MrBenjo S.v.Mering

Notified participants of WikiProject Authority control

•  Support David (talk) 07:20, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
•  Question Is item datatype what you want? It doesn't look like Wikidata currently has items for these templates, are you proposing they be added? I remember some discussion recently about notability of templates (but I'm not sure whether this is related or not). ArthurPSmith (talk) 15:04, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
  • @ArthurPSmith: Any Wikimedia page that is called as a property target has to be through an item (cf. topic's main template (P1424) and so on), and not an interwiki link, so yes. I mean, how else could this possibly be done? Circeus (talk) 17:17, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
    • @Circeus: Your examples are currently stated as having a URL or sitelink value (they link to wikispecies). If you want "item" datatype, then your examples should have wikidata items as values. It's not clear to me how you plan to do that - are you creating new items for these, or do items already exist? Can you clarify? ArthurPSmith (talk) 16:42, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
      • Yes, because in the absence of the relevant properties, creating items is pointless, but these are the pages intended to link, and a normal interwiki is the best way to refer to them. I'm somewhat at a loss how this can be considered confusing. Circeus (talk) 23:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
•  Oppose. In Auctarium ad Synopsim Methodicam Stirpium Horti Reg. Taurinensis (Q5711347), for example, the work is already linked, as a site link. Quite why Wikispecies has two entries for it is not clear; they should be merged on that project. In the case of A revision of the Solanum elaeagnifolium clade (Elaeagnifolium clade; subgenus Leptostemonum, Solanaceae). (Q42258482), the link is already present, as a site link. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Andy, if you actually LOOKED at what we do on Wikispecies (especially when you are over there), conversations like this would be so much more constructive.
    Of course, the work page is already linked to a wikidata item, because that is not what I'm trying to link together and if you'd taken the time to read what I'm saying (which I know you did at least once upon a time, because the last time I posted something similar, with mostly the same text pasted over, you actually supported the proposal), you'd realize how absurd it is to tell me what I want to do is to merge a mainspace page and a reference template. Circeus (talk) 21:44, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
•  Support though it's probably somewhat limited use. Maybe it helps species getting ahead with WD --- Jura 14:24, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
•  Oppose As a lot of templates, why not just interwiki link them? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:25, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
  • ...because the proposal is not about interwiki links?? Circeus (talk) 02:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Circeus: so under your consideration, (e.g.) adding species:Template:Amniota to Template:Taxonomy/Amniota (Q16741254) isn't good? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

• What you are saying is 120% irrelevant to the proposal at hand. Literally, there is no connection whatsoever between either of these pages and the proposal. Circeus (talk) 14:47, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

•  Support: I suggested a property like this one in a discussion earlier elsewhere. --Succu (talk) 18:06, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
•  Comment I clearly understand the principle, and I would tend to support anything that can go in the direction to links the publication items here to the relevant template pages in Wikispecies, however I think that a data type string to allow the creation of a link may be a good thing, exactly in the same way that currently works Commons Institution page (P1612). Christian Ferrer (talk) 18:24, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Just for the info, without being aware of this proposal, I asked a few hours ago how we could link such templates to our items. That's a bit funny. In any case it is indisputable that it is useful to find a way to bind properly these things that are about the same topics. Christian Ferrer (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

•  Comment@Christian Ferrer, Circeus, Succu: Ok, I think I now understand what these templates are. However, according to WD:N to have an item created - "If a link is a template, the item must contain at least two such sitelinks". If these templates are solely on Wikispecies, then they should NOT be items in Wikidata. Do I understand correctly that these templates are a standard reference format for a published work? Wouldn't it be better to create a generic template to automatically generate such a reference from what's on the Wikidata item for that work? ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

I do see that if a template has more complex logic - such as with Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians (Q1422837) - then something customized for that source is useful. But most of these seem pretty generic. ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Mostly agreed. The solution I suggested is much more simple than to create items for each templates, furthermore this solution should not be contreversial at all, as this is just a property to store a link to a related topic. Site links is not adapted because those templates are not "article pages". The site links are adapapted for this kind of article pages species:Dictionnaire des Sciences Naturelles, ed. 2, and such publications may have different articles, author and therefore several relavant reference templates in Wikispecies. So definitely not, site links are not adapted for the wikispecies reference templates. Also agreed about the fact that such template could be generated (maybe with the help of a module in Lua) to retrieve the infos from wikidata but this is another topic, and mostly relevant in Wikispecies, personnaly I do not have the knowledge to do it. Christian Ferrer (talk) 20:03, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

• Ok, to be clear then, I  Oppose this proposal as currently stated (with "item" datatype), but would support something like this with string or URL datatype. I suggest a new proposal be drafted to start fresh and clearly on what is planned; this one could also be edited but I think that might just confuse matters. ArthurPSmith (talk) 22:20, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Pesonally, I'd oppose string datatype. What's the benefit again for these? --- Jura 16:04, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

As written a bit above, to make a link thanks to a formater URL, exactly such as Commons Institution page (P1612). Christian Ferrer (talk) 17:51, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

What prevents the template from reading the sitelink? --- Jura 17:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Please read my comments a bit above for why I think sitelinks are not adapted. Christian Ferrer (talk) 18:55, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure which part is meant to explain it. We can have sitelinks for templates, not just articles, e.g. Template:Bentham, 1839 (Q65033570). --- Jura 19:02, 4 July 2019 (UTC)