Wikidata talk:WikiProject Chess

From Wikidata
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Player profiles[edit]

Maybe we need a property for 365chess.com and chesstempo.com? At lvwiki, we're linking chess players to these websites via templates, so importing is trivial. And chesstempo seems to be a good additional source for missing Elo rating... --Edgars2007 (talk) 09:13, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea, will you propose the properties or shall I do it? --Wesalius (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I also support the suggested properties, and I want to suggest to create a property for the correspondence chess player profiles at iccf.com. Steak (talk) 17:58, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I support iccf.com as well. Will you guys propose the properties or do you want me to do it? --Wesalius (talk) 19:29, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please do it, I am not so familiar with the proceedings. Steak (talk) 07:31, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have done the proposals. Please show your support in the discussion of the proposals as well. --Wesalius (talk) 08:45, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hah, we could get an "edit conflict" there :) --Edgars2007 (talk) 08:51, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Elo[edit]

FYI, Property talk:P1087#Preferred value: Highest or most recent?. --Edgars2007 (talk) 08:40, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just 264 left[edit]

There is only 264 FIDE Masters (mostly women) unmatched to wd left at mixnmatch catalog. Help me knock em out. --Wesalius (talk) 13:49, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is not correct. E.g. there is listed [1], who is not a FIDE master, but an untitled player. Steak (talk) 14:20, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I created a fixed catalog containing only titled players. Would you please have a look at it? --Wesalius (talk) 18:12, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of chess players[edit]

In my opinion, untitled players are not notable for wikidata. Such players are hobby players, and with ratings down to 1200 Elo, every young adult could have such a rating and hence a FIDE rating card, there is nothig special about it. We would flood wikidata with thousends of completely irrelevant people. Other opinions? Steak (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No one is aiming to flood wd with thousands of completely irrelevant people. I created items for players with elo above 2300. That is all, I am not creating items for players below that elo (as you are implicating). --Wesalius (talk) 14:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please comment at Wikidata:Project_chat#Notability_of_chess_players. Ok, I thought you want to create items for every FIDE rating card entry, because I saw a few days ago one item creation from you where the rating was 1300. Steak (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Can you link to the (deleted?) item? --Wesalius (talk) 14:30, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Q27478560. Steak (talk) 14:33, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Q27478560 was a one time error, no intention in creating items for low rating players. --Wesalius (talk) 18:09, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We should define some notability guidelines for chess players. My suggestions: Notable are all players with GM, IM, FM, WGM, WIM, and WFM FIDE titles and all players that won a national championship or (especially historically) an important tournament. Equivalently these criteria should apply to the correspondence chess players. Further players may be notable, but this is then an individual decision. Steak (talk) 09:19, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This query yields all chess players without a title statement and without sitelinks. Most of them should qualify for deletion: 

SELECT ?item ?itemLabel WHERE {
  ?item wdt:P106 wd:Q10873124 .
  ?item wikibase:sitelinks 0 .
  
  MINUS {?item wdt:P2962 ?title }.
  
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "en" }
}
Try it!

-- Steak (talk) 08:36, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Treatment of deleted FIDE Profiles[edit]

FIDE Profiles get usually deleted when the player has died. What do we do then with the links to the profile in the Elo rating qualifiers? An example would be Q9139356. Dead links as qualifiers is a bad solution. Steak (talk) 14:43, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea how to treat such a situation. --Wesalius (talk) 18:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Related would be the question how the Elo ratings of deceased players, where the FIDE profile is already deleted or has never existed, are imported. Steak (talk) 08:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have a partial solution for this issue: If a FIDE profile gets deleted, we mark the FIDE ID as "deprecated". For the Elo ratings, we could omit the ID and point just to ratings.fide.com or something equally appropriate. Steak (talk) 15:14, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Property for Federation[edit]

Is there already a property which states the federation of a sports person? If not, we should propose it, because we need to distinguish between "country of citizenship" and "federation". Most of the time, this is identical, but e.g. for Kasparov, Country of Citizenship is Croatia, whereas Federation is Russia. Another example, Levon Aronian played for German Chess Federation in 2003 and 2004 without being a citizen of germany. Steak (talk) 13:45, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We have country for sport (P1532). --Edgars2007 (talk) 13:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thats exactly what we need. Wesalius, could your bot add to every chessplayer item the federation, based on the entry in the FIDE profile? Steak (talk) 13:53, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I dont think so. --Wesalius (talk) 16:21, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? Steak (talk) 17:00, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I dont remember seeing any other tag in the xml files indicating country besides the <country> one, which indicates the country the player is from, not the federation. --Wesalius (talk) 17:41, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean. FIDE does not save any citizenship of the player. What does it say e.g. at Kasparovs profile in the XML file? I'd guess it says russia. Steak (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it says <country>RUS</country>. --Wesalius (talk) 17:59, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. For reference, could you also check the entry for Fabiano Caruana in 2012 and 2016? In 2012, it should say Italy, in 2016 it should say United States. Steak (talk) 19:10, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The xml files are available at https://ratings.fide.com/download.phtml --Wesalius (talk) 19:12, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I checked the txt-files. It is like a assumed. So FIDE provides des Federation of the player. Would you like to import it? Steak (talk) 19:16, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I wont have time for that in the upcoming month. You can put it into the tasks at the project homepage. --Wesalius (talk) 19:19, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Chessgames[edit]

Right now in the German-chat is a discussion about including chessgames to Wikidata (WD:Forum#Schachpartien, maybe it is an interessting thing to add to this project? Q.Zanden questions? 11:56, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Q.Zanden: see examples in
In hewiki we have template to show the page from Wikidata: {{#invoke:Chess|pgnFromWikidata|Q936161}} results in he:ירוק-העד.
Eran (talk) 19:45, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Olimpbase[edit]

I pointed out an error with the links to olimpbase at Property talk:P3940. Steak (talk) 13:21, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

FIDE rankings[edit]

I have been updating FIDE world rankings each month, as I believe it is useful for this information to be accessible without leaving Wikipedia. Is there a means of automating this process, or to record the data here so it could simply replicated across other languages? The English and Russian Wikipedia are the only languages with up-to-date rankings. Hrodvarsson (talk) 02:40, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Hrodvarsson: Currently updating the rankings. From now on it should be more often (more or less in time). --Edgars2007 (talk) 15:52, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Edgars2007: Thanks for the reply and sorry for the late response (I must have missed the ping). What I meant was a template that could be transcluded in other languages of Wikipedia, so if I were to update the rankings here it would apply across all languages, rather than just updating the rankings on en-wiki. Similar to updating a wikidata infobox would apply to articles that contain the wikidata infobox. Hrodvarsson (talk) 19:48, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Hrodvarsson: Another ping for @Edgars2007: because yours did probably not work. What you are looking for is probably something similar to the de:Vorlage:Elo-Diagramm. If not, please be more precise. Steak (talk) 11:41, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Steak: Thanks. That de-wiki template is also useful but what I meant was the creation of a template on Wikidata that could be transcluded onto all languages of Wikipedia. The template would contain the same data as the wikitable currently seen on en-wiki FIDE world rankings, except with en-wiki article links replaced with Wikidata links. For example, replacing the link to "Magnus Carlsen" with Q106807. The rest of the data is numerical. I have little experience on Wikidata so I don't know if this possible, but the idea seems useful to me. Hrodvarsson (talk) 22:50, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Hrodvarsson: I don't think this is possible at the moment. Have look for example at this query:
SELECT distinct ?item ?itemLabel ?elo ?date WITH {
  SELECT ?item ?stmt ?elo ?date WHERE {
     ?item p:P1087 ?stmt .
     ?stmt ps:P1087 ?elo .
     FILTER(?elo > 2599)
     optional {?stmt pq:P585 ?date }
  }
} AS %elo

WHERE {
  {
    SELECT ?item (MAX(?date) AS ?date) WHERE {
       INCLUDE %elo .
    } GROUP BY ?item 
  }
  INCLUDE %elo .   
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
}
order by desc(?elo )
Try it!

It should basically reproduce the current world ranking list. However, as you can see, there are players like Kasparov contained that are no longer active. But this cannot be filtered out because wikidata does not contain data regarding active or inactive players. It is therefore currently not possible to exactly reproduce the FIDE Top 100 ranking list. Does this answer your question? Steak (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Steak: That answers my question, yes. If there is not a means of filtering inactive (or deceased, as in Gashimov's case) players then it is not possible as you say. Thanks for the effort anyway, much appreciated! Hrodvarsson (talk) 22:05, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Large Database[edit]

Might be interesting for some of you: In 2006 a paper was published about chess player Elo ratings: A complete database of international chess players and chess performance ratings for varied longitudinal studies. The author of this paper assembled a large databse of player names, Elo ratings, birthdates, titles, FIDE IDs, etc., which can be found here. This database is in Microsoft Access format and can be queried using SQL or the point-and-click assistent of Access. Steak (talk) 13:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Titled player count missmatch[edit]

Out of curiosity I queried for the number of GMs per country. 

SELECT ?countryLabel (COUNT(DISTINCT ?gm) AS ?gms) WHERE {
  ?gm wdt:P2962 wd:Q105269.
  ?gm wdt:P1532 ?country.
  FILTER EXISTS {?gm wdt:P1440 ?fide}
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
} GROUP BY ?countryLabel
ORDER BY DESC(?gms)
Try it! (https://w.wiki/vVR)
Country FIDE Wikidata
Russia 256 247
USA 101 95
Germany 96 101

The results don't match with the numbers provided by FIDE. The values taken from Wikidata seem to be never accurate, they don't have a bias in any direction (too high or too low), but are sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller then FIDE counts. While it'd be possible that there are some GMs that don't have a Wikidata item, because they got their title after the last mix-n-match batch for titled players, it's very strange that we know more German FIDE-grandmasters then FIDE does. Either FIDE messed up counting their grandmasters, or our data is inaccurate. Does anyone see an easy way to check where the mismatch in the numbers comes from? -- Dr.üsenfieber (talk) 17:34, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr.üsenfieber: You cannot compare these numbers for several reasons:
  1. FIDE deletes desceased players from its database, while in your query, they are contained, which results in a constant overshooting.
  2. FIDE only counts the current federation, while in wikidata all federations that a player played for are listed (at least in theory, there may be of course federations missing as statements). This again generates an overshooting, and it would be even bigger if you use p:P1532 instead of wdt:P1532 to fetch all statements, not only the preferred ones.
  3. Last but not least, the total number of GMs in Wikidata should be quite accurate, but we are not tracking federation changes, which again results in some deviations compared to FIDE database. Steak (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Steak: I scanned a sample of alive grandmasters and a main reason for the number mismatch appear to be the federation changes. It might be a good idea to (semi-)automatically set the latest known federation as the preferred one. Ratings.fide.com only publishes the latest federation as far as I can see. -- Dr.üsenfieber (talk) 13:18, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Dr.üsenfieber: Sure, tracking the current federation of each player would be great. It just needs someone to do it ;) Steak (talk) 15:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, any updates on the project? Some plans for future? Seems like all we're doing now is just updating Elo. --Ján Kepler (talk) 09:07, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ján Kepler: Hi Jan, from my side, I will not start any new big projects in the near future, and I will probably also step back from the Elo updates in a few weeks. But feel free to import games, tournaments, or any other data :) Steak (talk) 18:46, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I will be updating FIDE ratings and titles. Игорь Темиров (talk) 11:03, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You can update the ratings (i.e. add new ratings), but I am strictly against removing or changing the rating data that is already there. Steak (talk) 11:34, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you are referring to the FIDE ID links. Those links are not the reason for having the FIDE ID there. The FIDE is in the source to be able to clearly identify the player. There are many players with the same name. If you have just the name and the rating list, it is not clear which player is meant. The FIDE ID is unique and therefore necessary. You can add the links to the rating list additionally if you want, I have no objections. Steak (talk) 12:59, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elo ratings update[edit]

I have an intention:

  • Update the chess players' ratings on a monthly basis according to the FIDE monthly reports
  • Sort rating entries by date
  • Add the maximum rating value, if such a property exists. I do not know. This property is needed in the chess player's card on Wikipedia. If there is no such property, maybe create it?
  • I will not duplicate a chess player's rating if he has not played this month and his rating has not changed
  • One participant flooded Wikidata with useless data, for example, Garry Kasparov has 201 rating entries, but the last 140 entries are the same. Why duplicate a rating if it hasn't changed since last month?
  • Add a chess player, if he is in the FIDE's sheet, regardless of his achievements. Or need clear criteria for adding. Although I do not see the need for this. The criteria are necessary for wikipedia in my opinion. But wikidata is for everyone, we don't know who might need this data.

Please express your opinion. Игорь Темиров (talk) 12:47, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I answer to your points:
  1. Okay.
  2. Not okay. Wikidata entries are just raw data, and for usage in wikipedia, the order of entries is absolutely irrelevant.
  3. I think this should be done in the Wikipedias using template or module algorithms. But if there is such a maximum property, and if you are willing to keep this updated, I have no objections.
  4. Okay. You decide what you newly add, sure.
  5. This was discussed enough now. Basically, the FIDE list is there, and we just mirror the information that is contained in there. Nobody is forced to use it. Besides that: There is a difference in such ratings: The player can be active or inactive in such months were the rating did not change. It would be possible to add a property for this. But I am strictly against removing. And if a Wikipedia wants to use the most recent Elo rating from Wikidata, there should be all players available, otherwise some players appear with an old month. Steak (talk) 13:09, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Why do you want to add amateur players with rating 1300 or 1600? It's just "flooding with useless data". The clear criterion that we have is "has title". Steak (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Besides the argument "Don't touch my anything" do you have any other arguments?
"The clear criterion that we have is "has title" - what are the rules for this? Игорь Темиров (talk) 10:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Since the discussion here is not enough for you, I suggest that you start a discussion about the notability of chess players on Wikidata:Project_chat. If the majority agrees to create items for all chess players in the FIDE database or to use a wider criterion than currently, it is fine for me. Steak (talk) 16:31, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not only. Duplicates need to be removed. Need to replace your links with links in monthly FIDE's ratings. Need to sort the ratings. Finally, add all the chess players mentioned in the FIDE's list.
Why a separate topic? Everyone can support you or me here. Игорь Темиров (talk) 17:26, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, everyone can support, but nobody takes notice of our dialogue here. If you want more opinions, the discussion should be at a more prominent page. Steak (talk) 18:14, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I suggested it. But if you want to have more opinions, it is not the optimal place. Steak (talk) 19:31, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, my suggestion is Wikidata:Project_chat. But you are free to chose. Steak (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rapid and blitz Elo ratings[edit]

Hello, on chess players articles the classical rating is the only rating provided. What about blitz and rapid ? These paces have a growing importance and to me they are necessary to understand one's chess career. So here are my questions :

  • Do you think chess players articles should provide this information ?
  • Is it possible to add those to the biography infoboxes on Wikipedia and update with Wikidata ?
  • If yes, how can we have the authorization to do it ?
  • If this isn't the right place, where should I open a discussion to have these questions answered ?

Thank you for your answers. Verbalemya (talk) 17:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Structure of ranking data[edit]

Since this project seems kinda inactive, I posted in main chat. --LockaPicker (talk) 11:36, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Chess&oldid=2158002950"